​Dr. Paul  0:35  
Welcome to with the wind science revealed. My guest today is none other than Steve Juncus. He's my attorney suing the Oregon Medical Board for their wrongful termination of my license. We cover his lawsuit against medical mandates here in Oregon, a suit against Governor Kate Brown, we have a deep discussion on public health, what's going on and what to do. And then Didi covers his journey with the vaccine issue as a grandpa, as a family, man, and how this has affected his family. Enjoy the show.

Back to you, Paul, coming to you from the heart. My thought today, my topic is self care. When we're going through hard times, and my gosh, who hasn't these past three, three years. If you're really taken down to your knees, and I experienced that, with the loss of my license, and a whole lot of other things that were happening at the same time, I was beyond my own personal limit. And I wasn't useful, really, I wasn't able to really give to anybody, I was so shattered. And you don't have to let yourself get to that point. But if you're feeling really overwhelmed, you're feeling really maxed out. It's time to reach out and really get the care that you need. Because it's when we take care of ourselves, I think about the message on the airplane about the oxygen mask and they're saying put your own mask on first, then you are available to take care of your child, for example. Well, it's no different in life when we are taken down to our knees. We need to take care of ourselves. And it's not selfish to do that. It's actually the most loving and caring thing we can do. Because when we're filled with love, we're there to fill up others. Welcome, Steve joncas What an honor it is to have you back on our show with the wind.

Stephen Joncus  2:42  
Good morning, Dr. Thomas. It's great to be here. And you're actually one of my heroes, so pleased to represent you.

Dr. Paul  2:50  
Thank you so much. You are one of mine. I dealt with attorneys. During my career as a pediatrician, I was an expert witness for child abuse cases.

Stephen Joncus  2:58  
And I recall

Dr. Paul  3:01  
going up elevators with sometimes there'd be three or four attorneys and they would often be on opposing sides of this case that I was going to go to and they're just chatting like good old buddies like they're on the golf course. And then you get in the courtroom, man and you put on your other hat. I always just found that interesting. But I find you to be one of the most ethical attorneys I've ever run into because your loyalty is just to the cause and to your client. I don't I just don't see you playing games with this stuff.

Stephen Joncus  3:31  
I've never been a game player. I was hated game playing. And I frankly I have trouble doing what opposing counsel some facts because I'm not a game player and a lot of them banter is did you see attorneys do gameplay? Yeah.

Dr. Paul  3:48  
That's how it felt to me. I was actually recommended by a judge once I could see they were just doing the nonsense objection and all that stuff. And I'm smiling. The judge was Dr. Thomas, this is serious business. You need to take this seriously. Oh, yes, sir. Anyway, you have a very unique background chemical engineer. 15 year career with Rockwell International, you manage the shuttle mission simulator that you were working with NASA's finest Space Shuttle seven years 50 shuttle flights, then you begin your legal career in 1996. With this focus on intellectual property and civil rights, I am just so thankful that I found you because I couldn't find folks if you don't know this fact, I could not find a single attorney in Oregon to represent me against the Oregon medical board who were after me in really gnarly ways, shall we say? But just to give a little background of some of the things you've done. I know you are involved with passing a ban the jab resolution. Can you tell us more about that? That was fairly recent may it may 2023.

Stephen Joncus  4:50  
Yes, I ran across this Dr. Sands seller in Florida who had written this ban the jab resolution My COVID vaccine as he was had drafted a proposed ban or a resolution for other counties to follow so he has a number of counties in Florida that have passed this resolution. I think the state of Idaho Republican Party about party in the state of Idaho was passed the resolution and so I brought it forward to the Clackamas County P committee and asked them they have already Clackamas County to pass this resolution. And then they did. I think it has gone nowhere and in Clackamas County, they basically in orders of understand, but I think it's it helps spread the word about how terrible the COVID vaccines are. Yeah.

Dr. Paul  5:49  
So passing that ban by one party doesn't turn it into law yet, what would need to happen to actually, for example, have the residents of Clackamas County exempt from mandates, because I guess that's the goal. We want to get rid of mandates.

Stephen Joncus  6:05  
The goal was to outlaw the vaccine, the resolution was to outlaw on the vaccine. So the commissioners, Clackamas County Commissioners would have to pass a statute that would outlaw the vaccines. The ban also calls for the sheriff to seize all the vaccines and in Clackamas County doesn't specifically address mandates. And the problem with mandates is, say you they're banned, but your employers to hire. So you're not immune from that, because of this resolution.

Dr. Paul  6:37  
But I have heard that sheriffs have the power to operate in that way independently. Is that true?

Stephen Joncus  6:43  
Yeah, sheriffs have special power under the Constitution for the highest law enforcement officer being a county in the state. They're the only ones that can arrest the governor, for example, I'm not an expert on how that works. That's criminal law that I've never dealt into. But they have vast, unused power. And I hope to see a revolution in every grocery store chain.

Dr. Paul  7:09  
It's interesting and good to know that there might be one arm of law enforcement that could actually stand for the Constitution of the United States. Yeah. Yeah. Back to Oregon, you have a vaccine mandate case with our former governor, Governor Brown, right? What's the update on

Stephen Joncus  7:27  
that one? I assumed Governor Brown to stop the mandate that she imposed and lost in the district court who was dismissed. I have a perfect record. Now, of all my cases being dismissed,

Dr. Paul  7:42  
must be doing something right.

Stephen Joncus  7:45  
Down to the ninth circuit, the briefing is complete. And or argument is coming up on September 14 in Seattle. Well, you're gonna be busy here at town by person or who also be live streaming on the live circuit, a website.

Dr. Paul  8:01  
That's fantastic. Maybe you can provide that link for us, and we'll provide it for people. I think getting rid of vaccine mandates would be the first step to getting rid of this tyranny of forcing people to take dangerous products. It just has to stop. Let's pivot to our case. I honestly depend on you for the legal aspects of this. But for folks who might be new to my story 2019 I published an article it was the large vaccination vac study of data from my practice that showed vaccinated patients were faring far worse in all health outcomes than the unvaccinated. And a few days after that was available online. I got an emergency suspension of my medical license I was a threat to public health was their rationale. And basically, they ended up taking my license illegally. And I'll let you take it from there because you were the only person I could find in the state of Oregon willing to help me fight the

Stephen Joncus  8:58  
medical board. It was interesting when I first brought up your case, because so many others were critical of Kohler vaccines, but they see they're not anti vaxxers. They're, they're now talking about other vaccines. But those same people now that we've learned so much about how bad that go with vaccines are, they have looked into childhood vaccines and are now anti vaxxers which is terrific. And so, for example, Dr. Gould I talked to Dr. Asa Tochka, Dr. Gold a lot. And she told me that I'm not sure I'm on board with that. Maybe she is now but so

Dr. Paul  9:38  
you're talking about Simone gold of the long goal. I forget that she FLCC

Stephen Joncus  9:44  
emeritus from my doctors

Dr. Paul  9:46  
that she's frontline. That's right, America's frontline doctors.

Stephen Joncus  9:49  
And anyway, but then I read your book. Then I started thinking about what the Board did and it just it made no sense to me that the you You have a duty to your patients was being told by the board who had no duty to your patients on what you can tell your patients. And that just fundamentally wrong. They abused the system. They sent out charges that were false in order to smear you, they intentionally tried to smear you they are they're trying to intimidate every pediatrician in Oregon to march to their orders on childhood vaccines. And that is the it's hard to find a a better example of a tyrannical organization than the Oregon medical board. They are under kind of now their defense to the lawsuit that i We filed is that they're absolutely I mean, you cannot see face. And they want that point. You the district court, or they are just like a judge sitting on the bench. And folks out there understand that if you're in a lawsuit and you lose a lawsuit, you can't sue the judge. Because you lost the loss, you can appeal his decision, but you can't sue him personally. That's what absolutely is. And there's the judge made law, that these boards that control professions like nursing, and gambling and doctors, all sorts of other medical professions are just like judges, they judge them by their own profession. And they reached decisions, suspending licenses and things like that. And you don't want to judge these sued a lot of being sued at all, if He suspends a license for some malfeasance fine doctor, but they've they because they have no there's no control over them. They are not accountable to the public, they've gone out of control. And that judge made law that they are immune, the judges or the members of the border are immune to searing needs to be overturned. Because you can't have a tyrannical organization like this. That is not responsive. Yeah,

Dr. Paul  12:17  
yeah. That accountable to no one aspect of medical boards is truly something that once they decide they're going to target an individual as they had for me, and they've done this to so many other doctors. It's not over medical malpractice or shady character issues. I mean, boards 3040 years ago, primarily, we're going after doctors who are working intoxicated doctors who were sexually abusing their patients under anesthesia, it was that sort of egregious behavior that needed to be controlled, of course, for the benefit of the public. Now, it's just morphed into, you have to do things our way or else censorship, silencing. And really, they play this game of standard of care. So if you're not practicing standard of care, then you are in violation of medical board policies. But they've taken that to an extreme that makes no sense because you would have no innovation ever.

Stephen Joncus  13:14  
If you can't provide

Dr. Paul  13:17  
better ways to do things, which was exactly what my data showed. It was like folks, and actually that data was at their request. That's the most incredible thing about this. So which we're really fighting them on federal constitutional law, aren't we?

Stephen Joncus  13:35  
Yeah. Are you have a free speech, right? We're in federal court. We serve Federal Claims for violation of free speech and for violation of your due process on a fortunately, they summarily suspended you they violated their own laws in doing that. So they are outside their authority, which is one reason they should be held liable here because they may only have the authority granted to them by the legislature. And when they suspended you on an emergency basis without filing simultaneously filing a complaint, or the law requires that they simultaneously filed a complaint and they did not do that for another four or five months circle. That's the or at the outside their authority in there for judge made law. It says that's that is a time that medical boards can be sued. Also, it's not just the board members, if we sue the individual investigators and investigators under even the judge rate law do not get absolutely but the district of Oregon gay, the investigators actually wish is contrary to ninth circuit precedent. So they are pretty vulnerable on appeal. Yeah,

Dr. Paul  14:59  
the whole costs cept that somebody can be completely above the law, absolute immunity, you can do whatever you want, you can destroy. You can fabricate things, or you can basically break the law yourself and be immune. It just doesn't even make sense.

Stephen Joncus  15:13  
It's all American. And it's there's a lot of things like that go on right now with the journey that's taking over our world. Yeah.

Dr. Paul  15:23  
So to pivot from my specific case, I've just been shocked with the COVID. These few years, we've experienced how much power public health authorities have to give vaccine mandates for something that's not even a vaccine, something that's clearly now known to be harmful, and yet they just carry on. What do we do legally to maybe change that power structure, it seems very imbalanced to me.

Stephen Joncus  15:49  
So I think probably a long battle of continuing to hammer away my case on the vaccine mandate in Oregon is one of them. And then I think as time goes on the walls, house, a car is a both is starting to crumble. It's really a public perception and a public knowledge issue. The public has become more and more aware. And when that happens, there'll be a clamoring for a change. There are a lot of attorneys across the country who are attacking this problem in multiple ways. Not meeting with a whole lot of success yet, except in the case of religious exemptions. Those cases have been pretty successful where employer refused to give a religious exemption and just fired the employee or gave them a religious exemption. And so we can accommodate you. So we're firing you anyway. Those kinds of cases are the ones that are winning the most. But this will become, I believe, much, much bigger 1000s time of the year event of tobacco litigation. So sting products, liability, prep, tobacco litigation, rocked the country and rocked the industry. And there were lawsuits everywhere. Everyone was waiting on the class that this will turn into that. Because Pfizer was Devin and lager were fraudulent. They knew what they're doing as willful abuse. They knew that these were bad drugs when they put them out. A very interesting thing that I learned not long ago is that these are really this is really a DoD program. Department of Defense, which is shocking. In the intelligence branches of our government. We're leading it, not the health branches of our government. And Brooke Jackson sued in a False Claims Act, Pfizer behalf of the government for defrauding the governor. And he was amazing. The response you learned a lot from the shots. Pfizer said all we had was a manufacturing contract from the Department of Defense. We didn't have to test for see where

we didn't have to it wasn't in the contract. Wow, government came in and said the same thing. They couldn't have defrauded us because they were required to test. They weren't required to give us any efficacy or safety data. So all you've heard about all this testing that was done was just our rooms. He was a fraud, the entire effect. And Pfizer, one of our use case was dismissed and is now on appeal.

Dr. Paul  18:46  
So Pfizer, Maderna our government, they're in cahoots. They're working together with this program. How are they able to roll this out to the entire world?

Stephen Joncus  18:56  
I'm not a psychologist. I bet we have

Dr. Paul  19:02  
mass what's the term mass psychosis that term? Out up? Yes.

Stephen Joncus  19:05  
I think that's exactly what's going on. They it was a propaganda works. Yeah. Being there was a massive propaganda campaign. They spent billions trying to persuade you how dangerous COVID was, and the thing to do the only thing to do was a vaccine. Yeah, they spent billions to just terrified by tending to agree with suggestions that the images we saw on TV were all we're all made up. They were set up by the Chinese. Then there were set up in Italy. All these people dying in the streets to stare us today. Yeah. It's just not an epidemic of Milan. So because people were scared they can fly. Yeah. And there was all sorts of games played You to be a good citizen, you have to take your COVID. To prevent Chile, Grandma, you have the COVID base, right? All these mind tricks that persuaded people to take the vaccine, the COVID vaccine, that was basically a bio weapon that we're left with,

Dr. Paul  20:19  
perhaps more than half the population in the United States still convinced that the right thing to do is to listen to the authorities to keep getting your boosters, maybe it's not quite half that are going to get more boosters, people are waking up. But I'm so shocked with the my own profession, doctors, how few seem to be aware of what's actually going on. So they too at appears have fallen prey to the propaganda hot think about our public health. There's always a doctor in charge of public health. And they're running this narrative to the population here in Oregon. My God, it's just constant still get your boosters, they managed to put the COVID Jab on the back childhood vaccine schedule. Is it just we have to have a ground rising of the population versus how do we change the minds of the professionals who should know better? I would think so. That's a hard question.

Stephen Joncus  21:19  
I mean, his highest is mind boggling. There what's happening? It is because it's not yet in our human brain that is tribal. And that once it goes in, once someone goes into direction, they'll stay with the tribe and not change their people. Doctors can be intimidated by their corporate bosses, who set a policy and they have to follow that policy or lose their job. And so that's a huge incentive to just rationalize why what you're doing is okay. Again, I this is a lot of psychology. I'm not an expert. There are few people like you and like Sivan, gold, for example, who refuse and fewer Cory Doctorow Macola and Dr. Cole and Idaho who generally were in the head, how do they relate independent? Dr. Merrick, they're independent doctors not controlled by by big medical systems, at least they had associations, but the big medical systems didn't have a leverage over them. And they also work with doctors who saw what was behind the herd. saw the wizard behind the curtain and getting by it. Yeah.

Dr. Paul  22:39  
I thought that was profound when you said we're tribal. I think that's been the most shocking for me. I was raised by missionary parents very liberal. I was a lifelong Democrat just because of my upbringing. And then when I saw an entire party that used to stand for the little guy that used to stand for everybody's rights, those who are least able to defend themselves, actually choose the side of Big Pharma on the vaccine program that was clearly harming the little guys, everybody, actually. And I guess it's tribal AI is, but it's, it doesn't make sense other than this massive propaganda, as you said,

Stephen Joncus  23:16  
and there's really lots of parallels to 1930s. Germany, one of the things I like is if you ever wondered whether you would have opposed the Nazis, if you lived in 1930s, Germany, if you didn't oppose the COVID vaccines, you would have gone along with the program with the Nazis. And you have been you would have in some of you would have been some of these talks now. We're who our audience are, we're gonna have doozy acid Nasus so it's still inexplicable to me how the humans can do that. But it obviously happened. 1930s And as we're seeing that happen again, yeah. And it's worse now, because this was really George Orwell's 1984. Coming to life coming true. We are in that transition period between free free people. And the totalitarian nightmare of was depicted in 1984. Big brother in full control of us, that's that that is possibly not far away, and who knows not gone past the point of no return.

Dr. Paul  24:32  
Okay, so with that horrible thought, you've given this a lot of thought clearly. What do you think is the best way forward for Oregon and for the country? You could go to the world if you like, but let's start local and expand your best case scenario of how we get out of this Orwellian 1984 nightmare.

Stephen Joncus  24:53  
That's theater starts with people, individuals in your circle, talking to them trying I persuade them showing that habit is paying people waking people up, to not comply and to resist every opportunity. Because we're valence and the Mr. Global I like that term for who it is it's trying to run the world Mr. Global. Catherine. Austin Fitz. That's her job for who's trying to run the world is Mr. Glow. Mr. Global, there's a few people relative to the population. We're more powerful than they are except that we're not all marching in the same direction. So it's a matter of from the bottom up then is there's all sorts of avenues for that was a political Avenue here in Clackamas County. I became a PCP PVC committee person for the first time in 2020. And there are so many news PCPs in Clackamas County that were awake, that we completely voted out, the old leadership of the Republican Party in Clackamas County.

Dr. Paul  25:57  
Interesting. Tell me what a PCP is

Stephen Joncus  26:00  
a precinct committee person. So that is ground level person who, in the Republican Party, the same thing on the Democrat party, they vote for the leadership in our county, and then some of the GCPs we don't delegates to the convention or again, and then some of the PCPs and the applicant of action, or, again, our delegates to the national convention for public part. So it's, and there's what's called the PCP pyre, it was jammed up by someone in Arizona, I forget his name. The idea is to change your Republican Party is from the bottom up to get rid of the new the party and the rhinos who have gone along with the impairment of our natural lens. The A lot of this dates back to the Patriot Act. What the government can do now is date but nice back to the Patriot Act, which was passed by both parties study was pushed by the Republican Party were led that allows our diligence agencies to basically a science and they violated that. And now we're actually in a what's called, I think, fifth generation warfare. The United States government is in a war with its own view. It's a war over your mind. Or Malala talks about this a lot. And and as an actor, most certainly Facts The Colbert because COVID was a propaganda campaign can pay for your mind swayed you have things that that were not true, persuade you to obey them. And the thing we cannot do is obey who we have to resist the no one ever comply their way out of maturity. And the only way out of maturity is to knock the client. Yeah,

Dr. Paul  28:01  
that takes you right back to the Boston Tea Party and the founding of this country, doesn't it? Yep. We seem to have forgotten all the sacrifices made through the centuries now for this country's freedom, and we're watching it potentially evaporate in a very

Stephen Joncus  28:19  
fast, short period of time.

Dr. Paul  28:23  
So I'm very nonpartisan at this point. I just want freedom. I want everybody to have equal opportunity and this country to get back to those roots, not a race route, not none of that just total freedom as it was idealistically written into our Constitution. Granted, some people say those people have owned slaves and yeah, I'm not trying to go there. We can do better when we know better and we should certainly should know better by now. How do we get away from this? You said it we're being pitted against one another so that the those in power can carry on with their agenda while we're busy fighting each other Democrats and Republicans and racial things and sexual orientation things and on we've got all these things.

Stephen Joncus  29:11  
All those things are being instigated by Mr. Flow. That's not the current talk about race. I'm transgender. That's not coming from the population. Those are things that have been so to buy Mr. Globe, to divide us to destroy the nuclear family so that we will become dependent on them. These are all things that lead to their increased wealth and power. Yeah. So it's, it's not that we should stop Are you or their neighbor across the street? Why are we better and about this? Yes. Why is Mr. Global and the cult that controls this country? Why are they how do we stop that that See issue does they? The our country is now in the hands of a cult. I

Dr. Paul  30:08  
think I maybe figured out what you were trying to say about getting involved and resisting. So if Republicans Democrats are like, who want to stand for the ability to have the freedoms you've become accustomed to, within our own parties, we get in there at the grassroots. And we start putting people who are thinking clearly in, in the infrastructure, so that we develop, hopefully, in the political system, some common sense and some wisdom, and then to resist, but, folks, pretty soon you're gonna get some real personal back and forth between Steve and the Hoover who's going to take over the last part of this interview. So don't leave this discussion. It's going to be fascinating. We're going to hold your feet to the fire, Steve. But before I exit, I want to give you a chance to maybe wrap it up. We've touched on a lot of grand, huge issues. What's the most important thing you want our listeners to be aware of?

Stephen Joncus  31:05  
I guess, it's you have to resist and to inform yourself, but resistance you have to resist to stop the security stick, you know, as you cannot comply. Yeah. And for it, it's become a partisan issue, obviously. And that's part of I think, and that's because of the tribalism, Democrats, Democrats, Republicans, Republicans, look at the progressives that are out there leading like Naomi will read what she asked us your progressive. Read daily, well, she was acquitted in campaign advisor, and a Trump hater.

Read Sasha stone, listen to Sasha stones substance at your reverses. She was a leftist and a Trump hater until 2020. And she discovered that she has been lied to by the people.

And she was so she has very interesting, insightful. So I guess, besides resisting, it's important to to find places that get you information that that is revealed. And the places the Sasha stone by I've done been Josie to Sasha stone light now and Wolf, then there's this website called conservative treehouse.com, is also called the last refuge and is an anonymous guy there who runs that website, who is on top of and is 100%, almost 100% correctly got everything about the politics of the situation is very revealing, as to what's going on in with even Republicans in Congress, I would recommend those three sources of information. Two of them are from former progress, or I think neither we will still call themselves progressive folks who are progressive, even and conservatives should listen to you should look at what Naomi Wolf and Sasha stoners you because I think they're variants. Yeah. And I think

Dr. Paul  33:19  
when you get down to the real truth of the matter on whatever issue, it might be, it will resonate, as, but you have to take your blinders off in my in my world, and you've joined me when it comes to the lawsuits, we're doing the vaccine world, I think one of the public figures who's speaking most clearly about what's actually going on as RFK Jr. is and to his absolute detriment as far as a career as a politician, that's such a hot topic. It's almost like, you've got to be insane, to go there. But he just speaks the truth. And it resonates, if you'll listen carefully to what he as an attorney, he's an attorney in the environmental world. I think he just stumbled on the fact that oh, my gosh, vaccines are one of the biggest environmental threats to young immune systems. And so it just fit with his environmental work. So keep your minds open, folks. And yeah, Steve, I want to thank you so much for being willing to take on the legal work that is needed, for me personally, but for our country and for freedom, that you are truly one of my heroes. And now we're going to have some fun. I'm going to bring on DD Hoover and she's going to get into your heart a little bit.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  34:33  
Okay. Hi, Steve. Thanks for joining me.

Stephen Joncus  34:38  
Hi didi.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  34:39  
So we obviously know each other because of Dr. Paul and what you're doing for us right and I want to first of all I want to thank you for that. So getting when I'm when you're working with somebody like we are I'll I just see like Doc said how great of a lawyer you are and how hard you work for what you believe in And but you're also a husband, a dad and a grandpa of what, just a few days now?

Stephen Joncus  35:07  
Yeah, August 3, and I was born in the Chicago area.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  35:12  
Oh, Chicago area. Okay. So my question is, I'm going to dig in and find out just a little more, personally, about you and how who you are has has been affected by what you're going through right now. So what were your experiences? Prior to working with Dr. Paul, prior to COVID, and mandates and so forth? What were your experiences or knowledge of vaccines?

Stephen Joncus  35:37  
Oh, I assume vaccines were a bit. I had no knowledge that that there is a risk with vaccines, and never looked into them never had a reason question them never had a reason to question what kind of vice doctors gave up a little bit of needling there where chiropractors are much better at resolving natural things that happen to your body and doctors are really so good at giving you advice on health issues. They're really good at, in general, you're really good at fixing broken bones. These catastrophic injuries require emergency keeping your

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  36:19  
child alive, keeping kids alive, curing diseases, different things. Yeah. And that's that's what the medical system in the past has been, like we all hear all the time is a sick care system versus a welfare system. Do you mind sharing how many kids you have as a bother? And if you did you vaccinate them? Just like you were told to? We had

Stephen Joncus  36:41  
two kids, my daughter's 29. And they were vaccinated. My theory adult think you're the 90s there were 193 96. B, the number of vaccines was less than it is tonight. But no reason not to and matter of fact, with a couple months ago, I apologize to my son for getting into vaccinated because I think he is mild indications of vaccine injured with really bad skin issues at some future of the world. But I wish I had no, I don't know how would it go at the die? Is at 96. But I

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  37:18  
wish I know. Right? And I think that's the piece for us as parents is that there was no information to CDC, all those things. They don't do any research. They don't tell you it could happen. And one thing that I've noticed through the years is that there's vaccine injury and there's Fash vaccine effects. And effects aren't really looked at the eczema, the ear infections and minor things that aren't going to kill your child, but they will affect their overall health. So it sounds like you've looking back, you may have seen some of those things. But unless you like you said unless it was drawn to your attention, because when our kids are that much older now, I don't know that we remember every fever they had after a vaccine, how were they cranky? Did they react? You probably don't remember those things, or

Stephen Joncus  38:04  
I don't because I was so distant from that my wife was the one that was close. I never knew if they actually had a vaccine or not. It was such a visit. And I didn't know whether they even had a vaccine. My wife tracked all that closer, but I don't think she cracked it that close. And I use my daughter, she's got to ask you to prove it. So the childhood vaccines,

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  38:28  
right. And that's the thing, though, is that back then, at that time, which is not that long ago, but there were those things they aren't. And that's the thing is the more they add to the schedule, the more we're seeing all these things. And that's what's unfortunate is that it wasn't maybe prominent enough back then and enough injuries, enough issues that anybody could really be aware until doctors like Dr. Paul and Dr. Sears and other people started seeing things happen to our children and becoming less healthy. So knowing what now about vaccines, would you have done things differently?

Stephen Joncus  39:04  
Oh, no vaccines at all.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  39:06  
Okay, so do you remember? And can you honestly say that? Can you say what? Okay, oh, I'm curious. Because that's the thing being in the position that you're in and all that you've had to learn in order to represent these people. But it makes me wonder I had interviewed somebody else. And somebody asked me later after the interview and said, you asked this particular person and they said, Oh, they wouldn't do any at all. But she's like, how do you know is that just off the cuff? How do you know if they really wouldn't do anything at all? Um, how would you answer that?

Stephen Joncus  39:39  
Oh, I have a current situation where my daughter in law told me that unless I was vaccinated against pertussis I couldn't see my grandchild for six months.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  39:54  
Okay, repeat that one more time.

Stephen Joncus  39:57  
My my daughter in law has told me My wife, then unless we're vaccinated for pertussis, we can't see our new granddaughter for until she's six months old. Wow. So I have to be recently vaccinated because she had a cat bite and she got a tetanus shot at the same time when she got the cat bite. This is maybe four or five years ago. So as I understand that, the Pertussis vaccine is combined a tetanus vaccine. So she's been recently vaccinated, but I'm not going. National Oh my gosh. So

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  40:34  
that's really what I'm going to talk about too, with you is you're in this big professional fight for Dr. Paul, and for a lot of people to be able to have freedom from that and to be so closely connected to someone who's buying into all of that.

Stephen Joncus  40:48  
How does that make you feel? Makes me feel sad that I can't get through to her or my son? I think yes. frustrating. Very frustrating, because I keep looking for the magic bullet. Yeah, well, what are the new arguments that will make a difference? I keep sending them see cursus publications, which, and he's transitioned from being COVID, hacking Makoa vaccines to now attacking childhood vaccines, which I was terrific because he has a lot of value because he collects information and puts it together and ask questions that the others don't ask.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  41:34  
So what I was then going to say is, so what's the feedback? Like when you do some things? What's the relationship now? Has it been harmed? Because you've said you won't get the vaccine? Or is there still an openness between you and your son?

Stephen Joncus  41:51  
He does want to talk about it. But there's also the it's not an immediate issue because they don't live down the street, right? In Chicago, so I'm just not gonna fly here. Right? For a while. My wife's there right now. Okay, because to help out my daughter in law, then my son just came home. Least, she'll be there for much of this month, we don't know exactly where she's coming back with, you have to go to me in September for a wedding. But my basically, my entire family, to my daughter and my siblings, my parents and my siblings, children are on the brainwash side of all of these issues. They're all brainwashed. And I'm the black sheep in the family, so to speak. And it doesn't matter what the issue is climate change, Republican versus Democrat, vaccines, wars, for on the opposite side of all these issues, it seems. And it's, it's perplexing to because I wish I knew more psychology.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  43:00  
I have to wonder though, I've had lots of training and different things. And it's, I'm still stunned. And I work with a lot of people and wellness coach regarding communication and how families can try and come together. And like in your situation, if they're going to have their hard stand. All you can do is love and be there and pray that nothing happens to their children based on their beliefs. So my last question is, I would like for you to share, if you will, your personal feelings like how you feel as a dad and the grandpa about the fact that government has control seems to have more control over the decisions that parents make for their children. So I haven't heard it said in this episode, but informed consent and what the Oregon medical board is doing to doctors and specifically Dr. Paul, what happens for you, you're out there as a lawyer and you're doing all the professional peace, but what's happening in your heart and your soul, knowing that somebody else could take away a child because of a parent's choices.

Stephen Joncus  44:03  
Oh, I'm furious. absolutely furious. And the way I express that could be this look, this is actually worse than what the doctors in Nazi Germany did. This is worse. We need a Nuremberg Q trial. And we'd hate the public hang isn't necessary. That's my that's how angry I am. Okay.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  44:34  
And that's thank you for your honesty. If anyone gets hung around here, guess where they're gonna go? I thanks for that. Because I think that's the piece is to hopefully we can take all of our anger and all the things that are happening and for me just being how scared I am for some of these children. That, again, that parents who are raising their children that doctors don't raise our children, lawyers Don't raise our children, not you, but another lawyer that that you're going to fight against is going to tell you that all these people have these rights. And they're not who goes home with these kids. And they're not the one who's raising these children the expenses of taking care of a child with autism, or who's sick. And so I think that's the thing that

Stephen Joncus  45:22  
I feel and you

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  45:22  
can say yes or no, but I feel like that's what you are fighting for. I feel like what you're doing now is so important, because you're not afraid to fight these people. Is that kind of what keeps you going?

Stephen Joncus  45:35  
Really is much more rewarding to doing this work than any other work I've done? Well, yeah. Because of all the people who appreciate, you know, express appreciation, like he just did. For what I'm doing. It's really rewarding. I've never had standing ovations before when I go to speak. And I never say no, I'm sorry.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  46:00  
You do now.

Stephen Joncus  46:01  
Yeah, if that's happened, for a while there, all I had to do is I assumed government say I sued Governor Brown and house like, crazy and, and the suit up the chair. That's entirely you for me. I was lonely attorney working in the trenches. You're not

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  46:21  
lonely anymore. But don't you still feel like you're in the trenches now?

Stephen Joncus  46:26  
Well, because this definitely, yes. There's a lot of there's a lot of grinding away these issues and trying to figure out the levers that might change someone's mind, who is deeply the mesh in sleep.

propagandize? I wish I could find the levers, they would change war minds have changed minds. It's hard. No, but I'm just searching for those locks. And some respect that, for example, I'm trying to persuade judges. And these are people that I had to have respected didn't respect, but I can't seem to get through to them, at least in the district of Oregon. But with was so self evident, and honest. And I think though,

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  47:24  
I'm gonna give you some advice. And so just don't quit. I think you'll find those levers, we talk about buttons and pushing buttons and lifting levers and making changes move all of that, I think you're doing that I every time, I've heard people like within the freedom group saying that, how much it helped for them to hear what you're doing, just knowing that somebody is fighting for our children and isn't gonna back down and is going to help people like Dr. Paul. Continue to educate, continue to fight, continue to do the things that will change one mind at a time. Every time we go to a conference, every time you stand up and speak everything that you do for us. It changes it's moving. Unfortunately, it doesn't feel like it's doing it as fast as the other side is bringing people on, but I honestly believe will win. And honestly, it is because of people like you, I hope you when you get that. And I feel like probably the best motivator you have is the fact that you're you're gonna have grand grandchildren in this world, you're you've got kids who have been affected by the vaccine, and no, and you didn't know and when you know you do better. So I think that's probably the strongest thing you have going for yourself. So thank you very much. I have a last question for you. So what do you say to all of these other lawyers out there that are on the other side, or lawyers who are believed like you do, Steve, but they're afraid of losing their careers or they're afraid of having their own name bashed or slammed? What do you say to them?

Stephen Joncus  49:08  
I try to tell them the truth. I try to give them the most persuasive things that I've read. I have collection and I have a document of about 60 pages is chock full of links, oh, things that I collect when I as I read and I will handful a stand a handful to somebody and try to change their mind. But there are those people who are agree with me, but they're just in situations in bigger firms that politically won't go there. Right. So they their hands are tied unless they decide to jump out and go out on their own and I hope more of them will do it. I was when this came along. I was at Alicia, are you work for myself? Yes. I was still working for the firm that I worked for in Portland with the last 2001 for 2016 There's no way I could have done this. And if I was handcuffed, financially handcuffed to that job, then that was a barrier to write to do that.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  50:13  
And I would think it would be scary for just a lot of people in general because it standing up for what you believe in many times, like you're going through right now standing alone, you it's just like what Dr. Paul had to leave his practice and the stand alone because of what he believed in. So, thank you very much. Thank you for letting me interview you. You truly are an amazing man. And if anything we can do that supports you or helps you or same thing and we'll use some of your links. I have a lot of people that ask about children who are being can't go to school or do different things or, and I always give them your name and your number to help because I know that you're willing to fight for people who can't fight for themselves.

Stephen Joncus  50:56  
Yeah, hi, just apparently to grow my practice. I just need myself a knife.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  51:01  
I need to get some of those other lawyers to jump ship and come with you. Alright, thanks for joining me, Steve.

Stephen Joncus  51:08  
All right, thank you, didi. Have a great day.

Dr. Paul  51:16  
I look forward to running together with the wind at our backs, revealing the science that gives clarity in our world. It's full of propaganda and misinformation. Visit our website, doctors and science.com Sign up. Donate if you can. Your support makes a difference. And let's make this the weekly show the world has been waiting for. Thanks for watching. I'm Dr. Paul.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

​

​Dr. Paul  0:00  
Hey Paul, welcome to with the wind signs revealed Bernadette's back. Now this time she's in a different role. We are discussing the psychotropic drugs, medicating normal and normalizing injury. We discuss anxiety, depression, ADHD meds, the importance of informed consent. And then the connection between these psycho pharmaceuticals and mass shootings. I questioned her on that one. We also have a special guest, Kim Whitsett. Her husband committed suicide not that long after being put on Prozac for insomnia. This was devastating, as you might imagine, and launched her career into making sure she was a strong advocate for the safety of these drugs. She was highly responsible and involved in getting the blackbox warning on antidepressants a couple of decades ago, and she's highly involved and we'll help you know how to get involved yourself. She advocates for becoming informed before getting on these medications, watch for side effects, know what to look for. And know that there are alternatives. Enjoy the show.

Dr. Paul, coming to you from the heart. I've got a different one for today, I want to focus on self care. I'm doing this because it's something I had to do for myself. I was really struggling getting back into my exercise routine. I on and off, I'm struggling with eating right. But I've realized that the most important thing I could do was start working on what I needed to work on for me. And so I'm going to encourage you to do the same thing. Is there something in your life in your world that really needs your focus and attention? Maybe start with one it gets so hard when we're trying to fix this and that and everything in our world. Perhaps it's your nutrition, you want to cut out fast foods or eat more whole foods, whatever it is, start small but do something. Maybe you want to join me and do exercise. I jumped back into CrossFit. It was scaring me because I honestly wasn't sure I could handle it physically. It feels amazing. sleeps a nice area for a lot of us if you're not getting the bed at the right time. So you get enough sleep. You're not getting that restorative sleep that is necessary for everything to work better that next day. And then there's always the opportunity to work on our emotional health, our spiritual health, it might be some meditation, it might be breathing exercises, whatever it is you do, I'm rooting for you pick something today, and just get started.

Unknown Speaker  2:47  
I mean, if you really wanted to commit suicide, there's nothing I could do about it, but I wasn't gonna make it easy. At 32 I'm a disabled veteran soon to be medically retired resulting from the use of a benzodiazepine Ativan as prescribed the way we use psychiatric drugs to vastly more harm than good.

Unknown Speaker  3:04  
A lot of doctors have forgotten about the side effects.

Unknown Speaker  3:07  
She said hallucination asked me to come into the kitchen, so I could hurt myself.

Unknown Speaker  3:15  
I started having emotional flatness, some sexual dysfunction, difficulty remembering what street we lived on.

Unknown Speaker  3:23  
They got side effects and then they would add medication to cure the side effects.

Unknown Speaker  3:29  
The power that I had as a military psychologist to say you're not normal, I could destroy your career

Unknown Speaker  3:35  
taking that first pill. It's not free. It comes with the potential for physiologic dependence.

Unknown Speaker  3:42  
This is just damage to my nervous system from a properly prescribed drug. What if my symptoms get to the point where I can't make it?

Unknown Speaker  3:57  
Not once did somebody say it could be your mess with me took Lorazepam for six weeks and six and a half years.

Dr. Paul  4:10  
Welcome Bernadette. It is so great to have you back on with the wind. You are knowledgeable about so many things. But today I wanted to talk to you about what you're doing there in Tennessee. You're very involved with CHD in Tennessee, and you've got a campaign or a movement you're working on called disarming farmer. Maybe just introduce that to our audience. And then we'll delve in a little more into the topic of pharmaceuticals that are used for ATD, ADHD, anxiety, depression, you know the psychotropic drugs and some of the fallout that might be coming from overuse of those drugs.

Bernadette Pajer  4:47  
Okay, well, first of all, Dr. Pol, I've missed you. So it's wonderful to see you again and talk with you again about this very important subject. Usually, you know, we talk about vaccines that's kind of been our primary focus and within 95% of children getting at least one vaccine. It's really important because it affects almost all children in this nation, if not the world. But there's a whole other world of pharmaceutical products that are targeting our children today. What's going on is something I'm calling they're medicating normal, and they're normalizing injury. And with both of these drugs target what's going on? So with medicating normal, and this is the name of an actual documentary film that encourage people to watch. Just look at medicating normal and it just, you know, people who have some anxiety or little depression, some sleeplessness, you know, these are normal human conditions that we go through a lot of underlying factors that have to do with what you're experiencing in your life, maybe poor diet, maybe you know, you've got the gut brain connection out of whack kind of thing. None of it is being you're none of these, you're in a situation where you're lacking a pharmaceutical to make you complete and whole, right?

Dr. Paul  6:10  
We're never fast, you know, Ritalin deficient, or Adderall deficient, or, you know, all the antidepressants, anti anxiety meds, it's not a deficiency of those conditions, those meds are used to treat a symptom

Bernadette Pajer  6:23  
to treat a symptom. And really, we needed this nation to go find out after the real causes of what's going on to support human beings based on the science of what we know today about the human immune system and all that. And of course, there's so much normalizing. Oh, yeah, allergies, asthma, autism, ADHD, autoimmune disease, all of those are normal, here, take a pill, the cover up that you got a symptom from that pill, take another one anyway. So this is the world we're in. But we're going to narrow it down even more because of all these medications that are being marketed and targeted, and channeled through the medical industry and our children today. The worst of them at this point, at least in my view, and many others are the ones that are psychotropic they impact the brain, they impact your thought process.

Dr. Paul  7:10  
Can you define psychotropic and give some examples of the medications that are most concerning?

Bernadette Pajer  7:17  
Yeah, well, some of the most concerning are the drugs that are given for anxiety, and depression, and ADHD. For you, I'm at the high level, you know, stage of discussing this, and you will later on be bringing on people who can talk more eloquently on that, I don't have a lot of that at my disposal. But these are, you know, a lot of children today through whatever reason are being diagnosed with these particular conditions and others, and then being put on a medication. And fully informed consent is not happening. Parents are not told the true figures here, something about like only a third of the people put on these medications are helped by them, and then only for a short window of time, and then it begins to have the adverse reactions from them. And about the middle ground of people aren't helped at all, they only have the adverse reactions. And then some people start off and immediately are negatively impacted by these products. But everybody who goes on them is not told that there's no off ramp. Once you start taking these classes of drugs, and you attempt to go off of them, your brain, you know and body have gotten so used to them, that the symptoms you begin to experience can be devastating. And some people find they cannot get off of them. There's no way to stop. So with within this realm of this, I compare it this way, you know how smoking causes cancer, we we do know that now, but not everybody who smokes, we'll get cancelled, but we try to encourage everybody to stop smoking, with this class of psychotropic drugs commonly prescribed to children and adults. For some people, it causes suicidal and homicidal ideation. This is such an established fact there are warnings on the product inserts that are around with a black box, you know, they're called blackbox warning drugs that warn of this. You don't know when you smoke, if you're going to be the one that gets cancer, emphysema. With these drugs, you don't know if you or your child is the one who's going to be the one. And because these drugs are not actually necessary, for the vast majority of people do not help. It's criminal, really, to continue this epidemic of prescriptions. And the use of these drugs has been closely associated with all of the mass shootings over the past decades.

The individual it's

Dr. Paul  9:57  
a that's a huge statement. Bernadette, can you back? battling up?

Bernadette Pajer  10:01  
Well, I can because if you go to the violence report the citizens Commission on Human Rights International in March of 2018, they came out with what they call the violence report, and I'm going to quote you, them. With millions of people taking psychotropic drugs, clearly not everyone will experience violent reactions to taking them. But what drug regulatory agency warnings confirm is that a percentage of the population will have nearly 410, psychiatric drug warnings 27 warning violence, aggression, hostility, mania, psychosis or homicidal ideation 49 warned of self harm or suicidal suicide ideation 17 Refer addiction or withdrawal effects and that withdrawal effects can be lifetime trying to stop these drugs. And once you stop them, all the things I just listed, including suicidal, and homicidal ideation can continue, even if you're not currently taking them. Now, when you go read that report, it outlines and so many people other people have, they look at that medical history of what was revealed and what is suspected based on the fact they were under a psychologist or psycho. Psychiatrists care, all of the mass shooters in school shooters, and there is a very clear pattern that these individuals were under the influence of psychotropic drugs at one time or another. So yeah, add

Dr. Paul  11:33  
a little footnote to that. I have three biological sons, all of whom struggled severely with really severe ADHD. I mean, they were almost non functional in school settings as far as being able to pay enough attention to retain information. So they were tried by their pediatricians on various ATD ADHD meds in my situation, not a single one of them, was able to tolerate them due to really severe side effects. So for one of my kids, I think he was in second or third grade, when he got his first dose, and boom, he was out, the teacher called that day and said, I don't know what you did. But please don't do it again. For another one of my kids, he literally had a psychotic break. I mean, he was just freaking out and like the out of control, did not know who he was what was going on in his body. And that was on the lowest starting dose, and then my third son, it would just ramp them up, like he was on crack cocaine or something. And he just got wired. So I'm well aware of side effects. And they can be horrendous, as you've pointed out, I also did want to just make it clear to the listening audience. There are people who are helped. I mean, you mentioned 30%. And I've had patients who are fairly non functional in school. I have one kid who went to MIT, I mean, brilliant mind that wasn't working for him. But on medication it worked. But the key is, people need informed consent. And and doctors, pediatricians, psychiatrists, I mean, my lord, it's a reflexive, oh, you've got ADHD, here's the drug. And as you said, a lot suffer immediate side effects, long term side effects. And withdrawal can be very difficult if you're on these meds, and you're worried about that. There are integrative creative doctors who will help you there are ways but it can be tough. And that's why I think, Bernadette, you're bringing this warning?

Bernadette Pajer  13:31  
Yes, exactly. Because you don't, you just don't know. And I know that there are now some genetic tests, to try to help doctors figure out if you're going to be one of those who have the really extreme reactions. But as you said, they're not holistic approaches. And when the studies show that maybe a third of people are helped, it's only temporarily, it's just a little bit, they kind of get better on their own. And then the drugs only help them avoid symptoms of drug withdrawal by staying on them. So they're not necessarily and I'm not an expert, not giving medical advice. I'm just telling what I've been reading in all the scientific literature, and what I've been, you know, in my dialogues with the doctors who deal with these drugs. So there are a holistic approaches. There's a school, I believe, in California, where what they, what they did was they had the children run a mile a day. And but they broke it up. So they would send them out three or four times a day, they'd stop their work, they'd go outside and they'd run and it all ended up to a mile. And the ability of these children when they return to the classroom to sit still and focus, and to learn was just astounding, no drugs required. There's a school in Memphis, Tennessee, where they've now integrated yoga into the curriculum, and it's helping the children focus and deal with their emotions and just a whole host of things. You know, and we haven't started talking about the nutritional side of things and you know, there's just so many things that can be done to Build the whole child to build the whole adult to really deal at that foundational level. But we're not seeing the public health dollars, or, you know, any money going into our school systems, nothing. This is what we need to change, we need to build real support. Because I tell you, I've talked to some parents whose children were say, vaccine injured or environmentally injured, that have really some severe anxiety and depression and different issues because of environmental or I intragenic injury. And at a very young age, they were put on some of these drugs. And the children are now trapped, having really scary side effects, you know, inability control their emotion, the rages, the hallucinations, I mean, psychotic episodes. And yet, when they tried to take them off the drugs, it gets even worse. And then they have these physical manifestations, the trembling and an ability to sit still, you feel like you're just on fire. There's all of these things that can happen to some people when they try to go off of the drugs. And they're trapped. Yeah, they're trapped in you. And I well know the things that make the news. That's when things escalate to the point where somebody has killed. Yeah, but one of these victims of the of this these prescriptions goes out and does the killing, then you hear about it. But Dr. Pol, what you don't hear about it is millions of homes in the US today that are leaving lives of quiet desperation. They're living traumatic, like it's not PTSD. It's D TSD, during traumatic stress disorder, because every day they wake up and they wonder, will their loved one have a rage? Yeah, well, they have another hole in the wall. Yeah.

Dr. Paul  16:48  
Yeah, if you're the person on the medication, and you wake up, and it's like, oh, it's gonna be another day like that, like, they know I've lived with to two individuals, one a family member, one a roommate, who were on medication, and or actually, in one case, not. The intensity of their symptoms was just hard to bear. Right? So every day is a struggle. And, yeah, we've got to start. But this world we're in this past three years of COVID, my lord, the isolation, the masking of what what we've done with our children, but it's affected adults as well.

Bernadette Pajer  17:27  
Yeah, prescriptions for the drugs we're talking about for anxiety and depression and behavior issues. They doubled during COVID doubled, and the pharmaceutical industry is raking and one of the top people raking in money is Pfizer. It's an it's it's just criminal. It's unethical, it's immoral. And so yes, at Children's Health defense, the Tennessee chapter, we're really gearing up for an educational campaign. We want everybody to know, we want people who go to a doctor to really understand because if your doctor is not giving you informed consent, you have to do your own, you have to do your medical, due diligence. We're calling this disarm pharma, because pharmaceutical companies through their marketing to children and young adults will tell everybody they are they're causing harm, because we're not giving full informed consent if you go to ti n dot children's health defense.org. And then look for the disarm pharma tab. We have some of these resources available and some of the books and documentary films linked and we're going to be updating that page as we get more information and begin to take action. You follow that page and, and I encourage any of you out there who have similar websites, groups. If you want to follow in our footsteps. Feel free to borrow our information, create your own webpage, push the campaign out where you are.

Dr. Paul  18:58  
Fantastic. Thank you, Bernadette.

Welcome, Kim Witczak, it is really an honor to have you on with the wind. Thank you so much for all you do.

Kim Witczak  19:14  
Thanks for having me. I'm excited for our conversation.

Dr. Paul  19:17  
Would it be okay, if I read the about section from your web website? It just touched my heart and I think it will allow people to understand where you are coming from. Is that all right? Absolutely. Okay, on August 6 2003, my world came crashing down on me. I was out of town on business. When I got a call from my dad telling me Woody, my husband of almost 10 years was found hanging from the rafters of our garage, dead at the age of 37. My drug safety FDA reform advocacy was born out of nothing but a deep knowing that something didn't make sense about what is death. So I started to dig in To the one and only thing that changed in my husband's life, being prescribed Zoloft. This journey for the truth took me to the FDA, HHS, Congress, the courts and the media. What I learned shocked me, someone had to do something. So why not meet? If I could spare just one family, the pain I went through by simply providing them basic information that I learned that I believed what is life and death could make a difference. That was over 19 years ago. And despite some successes, there's still much left to do. Wow. You've been through a lot. But before I we get get you talking, because I can't wait to hear what you have to say, folks. This woman that I'm chatting with, she's been featured in Fortune Magazine, Reader's Digest Consumer Reports, Wall Street Journal, New York Times Star Tribune, local national international television shows, she's been on the FDA advisory committees co organized the selling sickness, people before profits international conference that was held in Washington, DC, and she lectures on this big pharma spiderweb of influence on our healthcare system. I know you're I believe you're currently a representative on the FDA psychopharmacological drug Advisory Committee reviewing new drugs coming to market. What a task that must be. And you're a board member on several nonprofit organizations in the field of Dragon patient safety. As a pediatrician, I remember back in the early 2000s, when they came up with that blackbox warning for the antidepressants that, you know, we would sometimes prescribe for children. And I understand you were involved in that maybe you could start off by you know, that journey into discovering the facts around antidepressants and suicide risk and all of that. Absolutely.

Kim Witczak  21:55  
Well, thanks for reading, you know, I put a lot of work into my website, because really, it started out as what I like to call the accidental journey. Advocate. I never set out to do this work. But sometimes our greatest purposes choose us. And that's kind of what happened. Obviously, you told a little bit of the story. But you know, something intuitively when it'll be almost 20 years, next month in August, that would be past, but something intuitively didn't make sense about what he stuff. And so I remember the night that what he was found, and I was actually out of town. And so if you look at his story, he was given it he was given antidepressant for insomnia that he had Yeah, he had just started his dream job with a startup company and was having trouble sleeping, which is not uncommon for entrepreneurs, right. And he's a guy that always trusted his doctor. You know, he went to his doctor for you know, like, he broke his arm. He was a big athlete. He got you got bitten the head from somebody playing basketball. So you know, I always call him he went to the doctor's for Humpty Dumpty. He also did, you know, he did all the, you'd go get his PSA test because his dad and his dad had cancer. So he trusted his doctor and he went to go see his doctor because he wasn't sleeping, and was given a sample of Zoloft, three weeks sample pack that doubled the dose. I was out of the country, the first three weeks he was on the drug. It was my busy time of work. We both traveled a lot for work, etc. But I will never forget something and I'll tell you before we get into the blackbox warning, but he came home and he and now looking back it was clearly a sign that something wasn't right. But he came home he had been driving around he was completely drenched through his blue dress shirt much like what you have on right now completely drenched. And he fell to the floor with his hands around his head like advice. Can you got to help me, um, he was having me. I had talked to him about it. And he's just rocking back and forth, bawling. And I was like, uh, you know, we've been married almost 10 years. And, you know, we've calmed him down, we did pray and we did you know, breathing. He ultimately called his doctor. And the doctor said, You got to give it four to six weeks to kick in. And so that, you know, that was really the where we were at. And obviously, when that was happening, we never you know what, he lasted another week and I was out of town again for work. And I had my dad go over there and he's the one that called me and had to make a call that he to this day still says Better him than me finding it. But it was horrible. And you know that there was no warning. We never questioned the drug. We never none of that because it was you know, given to him by his doctor soul the safe and effective, FDA approved right. And that night When he was found the coroner got on the, on the phone and asked me if what he was taking any medication. And the only thing he was taking was Zoloft. And she said, we might have to take it with us, it might have something to do with his death. That was number one. The second thing that was really interesting is the front page of our newspaper had an article that said the UK finds like between antidepressants and suicide in teens. And that was literally like, almost in a way his note because he didn't leave a note. But what was shocking to to us is my brother in law was went home that night, and Googled Zoloft and suicide, to learn that the FDA had hearings in 1991. And did nothing It was just Prozac on the market. And there was the emergent it was about the emergence of violence and suicide. They did nothing. Eli Lilly did nothing. They were supposed to study suicide, suicidality. Fast forward, now you have it approved for kids. And now you have Zoloft and Paxil on the market. All of this happening, where we're just living, you know, our life. And this, you know, took us on this path. But yeah, so that really became our journey of like, we got to do something we got it like, because his death made no sense because he didn't, or depression,

Dr. Paul  26:25  
right? It doesn't sound like he was the kind of guy who was all the time depressed. He was he was not he was like the last person you would have thought would have committed suicide

Kim Witczak  26:34  
100% the lat that's why, you know, back then it was like, it made literally no sense. And so that became our journey is to go out, you know, and if and once we learned that the FDA knew about it, and they did nothing wrong for a decade, for over a decade and how many lives and then you're a pediatrician how many families that I met have kids that were like 11 one, you know, like the Matt Miller, he was 13 years old. They had just moved, he was having anxiety, he hung himself, six days after it. Another one on my friends Matthew Downing's daughter, Candace 13, hung herself from the balance of her bed, she got Zoloft for testing anxiety. And so all of these families came together. And we were before the FDA, what, uh, you know, that Advisory Committee, which is now the committee that I sit on 20 years later, right, back in 91, we all got to have an opportunity, like, and there were, I mean, to tell our stories, but you know, that was one of the many things that we did, but I think, you know, the biggest one, that in addition, obviously, you know, what his story because of he was a poster child because he didn't get it for depression. But the biggest thing that I think was instrumental in helping us was that I had a plan, I had a wrongful death, failure to warn lawsuit against Pfizer. And I was able to get documents out from under seal, that they knew about it, the FDA knew about it, and they intentionally kept it from doctors like you. They kept it. They were talking about this side effect called akathisia, which was that were what he was telling me he was out of his body. And that was a side effect, that they, the Chief Medical Officer for Pfizer, Zoloft, wrote an entire article that was in one of the, you know, the journals that anybody know, like a psych psychiatry journal, talking about apathy, Zia, that if a patient gets a quote, unquote, death can be a welcome result. That wasn't what was interesting. It was, it was the document that they sent to all their sales staff. That said, the attached journal article is not suitable for general practitioners, but maybe be of interest to neurologically inclined psychiatrists. So they intentionally at that time, were keeping information from physicians that might have been instead of like, when I caught, you know, and when he called, instead of saying it takes four to six weeks, they might have said, whoa, whoa, it might, it might be the drug that that you're on.

Dr. Paul  29:20  
Yeah. So I'm gonna ask you a question that we're faced with as physicians. And it sort of goes something like this. I've got a depressed, suicidal person in front of me. And, you know, they put them on this drug that has a blackbox warning of suicide. I don't know if it was the drug that caused the suicide or if they just committed suicide because they were already suicidal. Do you have any sort of way to unpack that?

Kim Witczak  29:54  
Yeah, you know, it's funny. That was something that we heard in all of the hearings. That was the debate that was happening as you know, like, how do we know it wasn't the drug or it was the person, right? And so you actually go and look at all the media that was done at that time. It was like, oh, suicides inherent in the illness of depressed depression. And so I think why Woody and a lot of these stories back then were really important is because they didn't get it for depression. Right? And, and so that idea that back then they didn't even have a warning. And they were even contemplating, do we want to put a warning because it might scare parents and people? And I was like thinking, Okay, if you do under, you know, to the question, you just asked, if you have a patient that is depressed, and there's this possibility that a drug might, you know, they would say, oh, it makes them feel this was their excuse, they would always say, oh, it makes them feel good enough to act on the impulse. I remember reading that too. Yeah. And I'd be like, well, that doesn't even make sense intuitively. And again, I'm not a doctor, I'm a layperson. But I was like, that doesn't make sense. Like, why wouldn't you give people the information? So that if it is the drug, and here are some of the side effects, that if you start seeing, like pacing back and forth, or that you maybe have a chance to like, step in? But yeah, I can't imagine like, I'm sure, especially nowadays, where, you know, especially after the pandemic, and and, you know, kids coming in, you know, there's all the technology, you know, for sure, I look back at what happened with Woody, they were at that time, these drugs were new, they were, you know, they were selling them, we have advertising, they were trying to get everybody on these drugs for everything, you know, there would have been, I would think, and I've had many doctors say to me, that that probably would be the last drug they would have probably put them on, there would have been other things like how about, you know, what's there? What's going on with their exercise? What's going on with like, is there a meditation? Is there other kind of things breathing? You know, things we would have tried differently. But, you know, I think, you know, we live in a society that I feel, you know, especially because we're one of two countries in the world that allow drug ads. So, which is interesting, because it's constantly, you know, in our face, you know, the drugs and the drug solution. And that, you know, and physicians and the system, you're not, you know, you're not immune from it as well with all your marketing as, but I think we've come to a place of, you know, the quick fix that a lot of people and I've heard, I just had a conversation yesterday with a friend whose friends who the mom said, her 13 year old son, really depressed, she just like quickly, she just didn't want him to be sad. And so she just felt like she needed to do something as a mom. So she just quickly put them on an antidepressant. And I was like, Well, I hope she knows like, I'm not, you know, I'm not anti, but it's like be informed about what to look for. And is that really the right thing to do initially? Like, are there other things that we should be trying? First?

Dr. Paul  33:17  
Yeah, yeah. Let's, let's educate our viewers a little bit on what should people look for? Because I think that's the actionable information, you're given. You've made that decision to take an antidepressant. Let's just start with antidepressants. And why should you look for that clues, you end a whoa, stop it, this is not going well, right? Because this business of waiting four to six weeks for it to take effect. Okay, for a positive effect, fine. But if you have side effects you stop. Yeah. What side effects? From your research? I know, you've sat in a lot of hearings, what are the thing, the clues that, you know, hey, just just stop it?

Kim Witczak  33:57  
Well, I would say that, you know, I've heard, obviously, you know, the ones that are palatable that we that are told to us, like, if you have you know, diarrhea, I feel like all of those, you know, kind of are just easy to you know, accept as that's what a side effect is, but the ones that you really need to worry about when you first go on a drug or dosage changes, or coming off of them is, you know, the side effect called akathisia. Which is this like describing it, like some people I've heard it described many different ways for what it was like outside his body and it was all this impulsive, like behave behavior. I know those for it's like, pacing back and forth. It's maybe constantly getting up can't sit still. I've heard people talk about it. Like, it feels like bugs are crawling in my skin. You know, so I think there are things like that's an extreme, but when you start having also having thoughts, I know that some You know, some people will get these constant, like almost obsessive thoughts

Dr. Paul  35:05  
there would naturally occur for them. Yeah, exactly

Kim Witczak  35:08  
that. And then and then I think that's the confusing part is, like, if you're having those thoughts are, is that you? Is it the disease and so I think having somebody at home like whether even if it's an adult, if you have, if you have a loved one, a spouse, a roommate, you know, checking in, hey, hey, dude are how you doing? Like how you feeling? I think that's really important. Because you know, you might be watching somebody, because if the if it's happening the person and imagine a kid who doesn't even know how to explain it, or they're like, you know, that they're trying to get this out, at least when he was an adult. If you know, I also look at extreme crying and pain. You know, that was another I look back and I never saw what do you like ball like that? I mean, that something was, you know, happening? really out of whack? Yeah, it was out of whack. And I think that, you know, I always say that. Especially like, parents and I even think, you know, as an adult, it was, you know, we don't have we didn't have kids. And it was just one night that I think we were like, Oh, you're an adult, I'm an adult, or, you know, it's just medicine, like medicine can't hurt you, you know, at least that's what I used to think right? Now I have a very different opinion of like, you know, having them on FDA advisory committees, looking at new drugs coming to market, seeing how drugs are being tested, how, you know, it's really the system is set up to put the drug on the market, and harms and the side effects. And even if there were some, although what was discovered in the antidepressants is that there were a lot of trials where they did have suicide, suicide, suicidality, hallucinations, stuff that were psychosis, things like that, that were in the trials, but didn't come to light and tell through because those weren't the positive studies. So I do feel like there were some there that they knew. But now looking at a lot of the new drugs coming on market, they're coming to market where it might not be Intel, millions of people start taking a drug that a little bit of a set, you know, something that doesn't seem normal, but might be a side effect, or pretty serious harm that we don't see until lots of people start taking it.

Dr. Paul  37:40  
Yeah. So if you are giving informed consent, so talk to a new family that's considering an antidepressant for their loved one, you know, informed consent being here's the pros and the cons and the alternatives. What would be important, do you think for them to know? Well,

Kim Witczak  37:57  
I think, first of all, I love how you actually because I wish that everybody described informed consent like you did, which is pros, here the cons, and here's what can happen if we don't do anything at all. And I think that has to be part of it as well. Or like other alternatives. I would, you know, start for starters, wondering if that's the first place that we look at. That would be my first if I had, you know, the other alternatives? Yeah, alternate other alternatives first, but if they tried it, they want to do it, then I would say that it's really about checking in on the people. It's read, also read the label yourself. You know, I used to think about those package inserts, a lot of people, take them, throw them out, when they come in your package, you don't, you don't really want to take

Dr. Paul  38:47  
it's like this massive document with a list of side effects that if you actually considered that those are possible side effects. Nobody would take a drug.

Kim Witczak  38:55  
I know that says it's so true. And so like, that's why I'm always like, read, like, I feel like people should read. I wish I did. I didn't, you know, and if there's anything with a black box, like, you know, the antidepressants, which I don't know, I wonder how many parents know that there's med guides and FDA med guide that accompanies those antidepressants. So I would want to have that med guide also, because it's in plain language of some of the things that I would want to know. So I think that's important. And if you have something I think, you know, I think physicians should be checking in on their patients too, and maybe asking some of those questions like, Are you having any random thoughts that you don't normally have? How about like, even that, it's probably why I like the descriptive words that I've heard people describe the akathisia like, bugs in their crawling in their skin or they can't sit still. You know, I feel like there's some of those kinds of questions that I think are part of the bar. consent that people should look for. And I think whatever. And I also feel like one of the big things is, let's have a game plan to get off. Because these robots. I mean, I do. That's me. I was

Dr. Paul  40:15  
like, never part of the plan, I'll tell you

Kim Witczak  40:17  
never, because also now I hear people like, how many stories and countless I've been doing this now almost 20 years. And I hear people are on them for like, 2030 years. I'm like, how, like you've not it's not a daily vitamin. And so I think that we need to also think about, like, is there a game plan, like, you know, these and have that honest conversation of, you know, when these first came in, on the market, they were tested for a short amount of time, they were never tested, or meant to take for years. And I think if somebody you know, now, I wonder where a lot of times, like if somebody's having a side effect, and it's some one of the ones that made the art that, you know, like, could get associated, like, oh, that's just the disease getting worse, which we hear that all the time, then they get another drug on top of it, and another drug, and all sudden, now, the thing that was first wrong, maybe didn't and then now, you know, I don't know how big this is yet in the but you hear about like doing testing, like, do certain bodies. You know, the idea that we're one size fits all? Or like one medication, like certain bodies, maybe have a Texas that can't process these drugs?

Dr. Paul  41:35  
Yeah, there are tests now for it's still doesn't give people the alternative of taking health and wellness into your own hands, which I think as you alluded to is absolutely the first thing you do. If you think of a kid having a tantrum, we wouldn't give them a drug, we hug them. We, we redirect them, we we support their world. So it becomes a world that they're safe and can grow in. Well just expand that to our kids who are depressed or anxious or add, which we can maybe discuss also. So you have a national public awareness campaign at I think it's Woody matters.com. Woody was your husband, right? Yep. And you bet he matters, because we want to educate the public so that you don't go down this path of, you know, basically endless chronic medication that it is hard to get off of, because you are artificially propping up serotonin, for example, with the SSRIs. And then if you remove that, you crash and you feel so much worse that you go back to your, you know, in this case, pharmaceutical drugs. What are you doing with your awareness campaign? How? Maybe How can you explain that so people know how they can access that?

Kim Witczak  42:48  
Sure. Well, I think, you know, one thing I do is I do I've been, it seems like the world we live in today, it's a lot of podcasts and sharing information. My big thing right now is I'm always trying to represent the voice of families who have lived everyday with the consequences, and making that face to remind people that there is another side, and I'm the harms, I will always, you know, now with a lot of the new medications that are coming on the market. They're coming on fast, and we're not talking about the harms. And nobody really wants to talk this, this, the system doesn't want to talk about harms. And nobody thinks it's going to happen to them. Until it does. And so that is where we you know, reminding that with right now, with the anti depressants, I'm also working on, you know, we have the warning for the suicide. And we constantly have to remind people that, you know, back when, when Woody was put on the drug, I had no idea that in 1991, that there were hearings, because I was like I was in college, you know, I was having a you know, I was living life. And that wasn't even on my radar. So I constantly, you know, tell people and I'm telling media, and I'm telling people like, you need to do stories to remind parents who weren't in 2004 2006, I had no idea the controversial, it's not like because I think so many people just assume these drugs have been on the market, and there must be fine, but they have no idea. There's a whole ugly backstory, and so to keep reminding them, of what you know, a lot of families and the stories that were tragic that happened and what it took to get those blackbox warning sign, so I do that. And I'm also like the voice, the consumer rep on the FDA psychopharmacologic drugs Advisory Committee, and I'm constantly reminded, you know, being there's already so many people out there that are promoting the benefits of the drug the drugs that I want to constantly remind people up the harms in my drug safety. But that

Dr. Paul  45:07  
brings up a perception that I've had. So I'm a pediatrician. My big battle with industry has been over vaccines, because just like you're expressing with the cycle tropic drugs and there's no safety testing, there's no long term follow up, there's no look at all health outcomes. It's just sort of shoddy short term studies are used to show that others benefit. And they just whitewash the safety. The ACI P which is on the CDC vaccine immunization panel that makes recommendations, they're rubber stamping vaccines, I mean, they even put the COVID Jab on the childhood schedule insanity. And my guess is, I'm pretty sure with the CDC that they're just captured, right Pharma has has at least the key committees people in key positions. My sense is the same is true on on the FDA and the pharmaceutical side of things. You've sat on these committees, what do you think?

Kim Witczak  46:03  
I mean, absolutely. I think well, first of all, if people understand that the drug companies pay to have their drugs reviewed through Paducah prescription user fee, so basically, you know, what is it half over half 50% of the budget comes from drug companies. So who are they actually really working? You know, I always call it the fox guarding the henhouse. Like, who are they? Who are their real customers? You know, a lot of times. So that's one thing to always pay attention, then you look at who gets put on these committees. And when you start looking at, you know, I'm using a phrase that what he always told me to use, like back to get to the bottom of anything, follow the money, right? So you go and you start going to who, what, what institutions do they work? Like, I was shocked, like, I didn't, I didn't know that how much of academic institutions and they get monies from whether it's pharma, whether, you know, they want to be on a committee that gets their own grant research, money coming. So all of that does influence decisions, too. And so I've seen it on my committee, and I kept saying, you know, what, because I did testify quite a bit I, because I don't have kids, I didn't get involved a lot, because I know there's people who do really good vaccine safety work. So but it was when the COVID jabs came out, that I was like, wait a minute, you're given them complete immunity? Wait, you're given Pfizer? Like, you know, I mean, all the red flags, all the marketing, completely safe? And I was like, how do they know it's safe, that you took away the placebo group? Like, how do you know, like, you know, until you start asking those questions, but you when I look, that I was always shocked that even as the on the hcip and and what is it the verpackt meeting or the verpackt? Committee, their consumer rep, I was like, that's not a consumer rep. That consumer rep is a pediatrician, who's an academic pediatrician who works at this institution. Like, where's that does, they're not representing the public. And so we've been advocating, there's a group of us, that have been advocating that you need to have somebody who lives in real world, the harms real world, like I want a pediatrician, like if we're talking about pediatrician, like, with the antidepressants, or any of the new anti psychotics are coming. I want a pediatrician who's a practicing pediatrician, not just one who's an academic, who is institution because I feel that some of them even if they want to speak out, they're afraid that there could be some retributions whether their own careers, their own grants. But you know, I know the reality of when that goes into the market, the system is not set up to capture safety. And because we've been listening for, I mean, literally, since I've been doing this work going out to DC. I heard every time we told the FDA, and it was in the MedWatch, which is the same thing as kind of the veirs. It's called fairs for drug or MedWatch. For drugs, and I'm like, we've been hearing the same thing. Oh, it didn't happen. This is just anecdotal. So it's quickly brushed off as anecdotal. Right? What happened to what he said, You should be curious, like, why aren't you curious to go find out how these people who got up or anxiety like hanging themselves, they did this? Like, you know, aren't you curious? So I was shocked that the whole safety system doesn't exist, and they're still using the same excuse they did back 20 years ago, which is, oh, well, we can't really trust the MedWatch system. You know, those are just lay people that are reporting side effects Am I Oh, no, it's not. It is it's supposed to be a signal. And also at this point, we're 20 years in. And now I heard the same thing with the whole verb or with the whole bears.

Dr. Paul  50:10  
So what do we do? They fix it. How do we fix it? What do we do? What do you tell people?

Kim Witczak  50:16  
I feel like when people I think we need to? Well, first of all, I think we need to not give away our power to, I think we need to advocate for ourselves and really take our own health into, into our hands. I also feel like, don't be afraid to speak out and challenge and ask the questions. Stop Pause, don't just assume that because it's FDA approved, or now it's on, you know, the CD, do a little bit of research, listen to places, not the mainstream media, which, you know, were at least a little bit helpful, even though they always leaned more towards Pro, whatever the product was, you know, go do your research. You know, I was shocked that. I mean, you know, when I look back at the vaccines, the COVID Jab, when you take out completely immunity that I heard, then you start learning about the childhood vaccinations that you gave these companies complete Congress did in 1986. And now that's when the skyrocketed. And so I think there's things that we can push put pressure on Congress, vote with your you know, your, your money, but really, most importantly, be responsible, like, Don't give your power away for you or your kid. And ask questions. Be curious.

Dr. Paul  51:46  
Yeah. Before I lose you, because I know you have limited time. Can you touch on the other psychotropic drugs category? So we've touched on the antidepressants, there's anti anxiety medications, there's, you know, anti psychotic, there's ATD ADHD meds? Are you finding the same sort of scenarios? Because I certainly see it in clinical practice?

Kim Witczak  52:09  
Yeah, so the same thing, you know, like with the ADHD, or some of the, the they're scheduled to I don't I mean, how many parents understand that their DEA schedule to that they're addictive. Right? You know, I mean, I was, you know, once I started learning that, that was something but a lot of the new anti psychotics that are coming out in the market. And they're almost everything, if you start listening to them marketing of it, like have you Are you still sad you might have, you might need to add another so they're putting antidepressant because say your kid, you've had a kid, you're they've been on it for a couple years, they seem to not be working. They're also now putting it all they're like, oh, it might be bipolar depression. So then they put another drug. And so it's this constant like you call that the little gerbil or hamster wheel? I feel like Yeah, so it's same thing with those, the anxiety meds. You know, I think we have to be careful and really go back and do your research on it. And be careful for the new ones that are coming out.

Dr. Paul  53:21  
Yeah. That it seems to me the newer antidepressants and antipsychotics are so much more potent in their ability to adjust neurotransmitters or affect neurotransmitters. But what that does is yeah, maybe perhaps short term, you have a feeling of relief from whatever your symptom is. But there's only so many neurotransmitters in those synapses. So when you've blasted them all out, I mean, the classic example is meth, you know, the meth addict will go on a run, and they just deplete all their dopamine and serotonin. And then they sleep for days because they are completely trashed. Well, yeah, these more potent newer drugs are a version of that maybe just not quite as extreme.

Kim Witczak  54:06  
Yeah. And, you know, you brought up something that I, you know, I do have a little bit of time, but just the whole, like schools, the linking the links to the violence aspect, that we haven't talked about. And so I think there is, you know, that is something that we do need to pay attention, like, what is it doing to our brains, a growing brain, right, and to the point where you like, don't remember something you go on, like, you just you're trashed, that we have to remember that these were never meant to be long term. We don't know what it ultimately does long term. And and for people you know, they're doing now they're looking at studies like with the increase of Alzheimer's is there is that a result of long term use of have, you know the statin drugs, the lat long term use of the antidepressants, the sleep meds, like, you know, all of that that's happening at the same time. So I'm glad that there's research looking, is there a link to that? I think that's really important. But it goes back to a lot of these drugs that we're talking about that have issues are kind of lifestyle drugs.

Dr. Paul  55:24  
Well, you know, the focus thing, because pediatricians deal with that a lot as and actually, all of this depression, anxiety is so prevalent now. I mean, COVID just made it doubly triply as bad as it used to be. And there are no child psychiatrists who have openings in their practice. So pediatricians or family practice Doc's, you know, providers everywhere are faced with this growing volume of distressed people, right? They can't focus, they can't sleep, they can't feel like they're okay. Right, that whole anxiety, depression, thing, and what to do. And so my experience was that a pretty significant percentage of kids who were tried on these meds had really significant side effects. So, you know, go natural first, if you possibly can, and a lot of times, it's all the things you alluded to clean up the diet, I mean, we the diet is such a mess, you got to start eating real food, we've got to reduce stress. And always we can stress just makes all these conditions worse. We're Yeah, and there was nothing more stressful than COVID. And thinking that if you just got close to somebody, you were gonna die or kill your grandma all these crazy stories around COVID, putting people in masks and you know, that just stresses everybody out. And then yeah, sleep exercise, there's so much you can do as in a sense of community and having loving relationships, it all is so important, what's what's burning in your spirit about all of this that you want people to know.

Kim Witczak  57:06  
My biggest thing is, how much we have to be our own advocates, and really take our own like health into, to take an interest in it and not give our power away. Because this system is harder to fight that way, like ask questions, don't be afraid, you know, that's burning, it's always been burning, because I've seen, you know, so much of like, labeling kids that I work with, I work a lot with foster kids, and I hear they're labeled, I'm like, Stop, let's stop labeling people, let's stop, like, and that if we want to be the change, the change doesn't happen out there to change starts here. So I think that's a really important one to remember. Even when we're angry about something, and I trust me, I get angry about the world all the time. I'm like, Whoa, like, if I focus on all that? I gotta focus here first, because that gets me going. So that's one thing. And, of course, you know, I want to I want to get into the investigating with the hole guns and stuff with the drugs as well. It's another thing that is burning in me that at some point I'll work on. Yeah.

Dr. Paul  58:20  
Well, thank you for taking your personal tragedy and turning it into a life's mission really, of helping the world understand what's going on here. It's it's so important for people to wake up. Our medical system is controlled, financed, run by the pharmaceutical dollars and big, big money. Doctors like myself, we're trained to diagnose and treat. So we're not trained about wellness, we're trained about illness. And sadly, the shift is more and more towards chronic illness. And think about it, that's where the profits are, you know, you get somebody on an anxiety or an antidepressant and they can't get off of it. You've got to money stream for life,

Kim Witczak  59:08  
for life. And that's why you know, I guess the other one, the big area for me is selling sickness. And I've been just starting to get invited to med schools to talk about what is selling sickness, and it's the sick model. And it's, you know, it's reframing the, like you said, chronic illnesses, its customers for life. Like you can have it. It is a smart business strategy for that. I mean, it's sick model. But you know what I mean? Like you get them in when they're young, even in vitro, and you keep them all the way to the time that you know, we have the highest amount, I mean, polypharmacy for all of the which is the multiple multiple medications for our senior is a big practice now to get people off of these meds. And so start thinking about it, that whole model of the the end st is set up, you know, that is probably the shocking thing. And you know, hopefully people are starting to wake up to it, but how much farmers influencing all of these areas, and then it's the system. It's, you know, the system that we're trying to operate. So that's why I always say you maybe not can't change the system, but you can change your part, and your relation to how you deal with the system.

Dr. Paul  1:00:29  
Yeah. And work to work your way out of the broken system and into a healthy model. It can be done and it should be a goal. I love that you're, you know, shining a bright light on this, and remind our viewers where they can connect with you for more information.

Kim Witczak  1:00:46  
Or you can contact me at Kim wozzeck.com. You can also follow me on Twitter, at woody matters. And then I also started a sub stack called acceptable collateral damage, although I call it I mean, it's really unacceptable, but because a lot of times people like Woody and countless others are just acceptable cost of doing business.

Dr. Paul  1:01:14  
Yeah, sad, sad fact, in a ruthless industry that's really just out for profit. It does matter folks where you put your trust and invest in yourself, trust your own natural ability to heal because we have incredible bodies. They just need a little nurturing in the right ways. None of us are Ritalin deficient Adderall deficient Zoloft, deficient. Name your pharmaceutical drug of choice. We are not deficient in those things. Except perhaps if you're diabetic type one and you need insulin. That's a different story. But for most of these things, there is an there's a way out of that pharmaceutical trap. Thank you so much for your time with us, Kim. I really enjoyed this.

Kim Witczak  1:02:00  
Thank you.

Dr. Paul  1:02:06  
I look forward to running together with the wind at our backs, revealing the science that gives clarity in our world that's full of propaganda and misinformation. Visit our website, doctors and science.com Sign up. Donate if you can. Your support makes a difference. And let's make this the weekly show the world has been waiting for. Thanks for watching. I'm Dr. Paul.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

​Dr. Paul  0:04  
Dr. Paul, welcome to with the wind science revealed. This show today will reveal a whole lot of science. We have Dr. Peter McCullough back on set. This man I learned spends hours every morning, going over the world literature. He has a mind that misses nothing and a memory that captures everything. So when he speaks, he'll also give you the author, the study and the key points in that study. And he is a wealth of knowledge, we cover SARS, cov to like never before the role of the US in gain of function research, everything COVID-19 from safety to adverse events, efficacy, early treatments, and he covers natural immunity, and even what he's discovered between the childhood vaccine schedule and autism. This is a Information Science packed episode. Enjoy the show.

Dr. Paul, coming to you from the heart. My topic today is freedom. Freedom is what drives me it's my passion. I am passionate about medical freedom, but all freedom. This country was founded on a desire I believe, for freedom. And so many have lost their lives in various wars, fighting for our ability to have freedom. When I lost my license, it actually removed the shackles of bondage that I was feeling because I couldn't express myself without being at risk for losing my license. I'm now free. So I'm free to educate, to inform to talk to you here on with the wind in my blogs on substack. And then of course it kids first forever where we can educate, inform and coach. You know, no one can make you do anything. So we all we need to all remember that we are free people. Let us be ourselves. That's how we win. So here's the freedom.

Welcome Dr. Peter McCullough, it's so great to have you back on with the wind. Well, thanks for having me back on Paul. For those who don't know, this gentleman, he is my absolute top hero in the world of medicine. You've been a cardiologist

Dr. Peter McCullough  2:26  
previously been Chief of Cardiology at the UMC Missouri Kansas City, I had moved up the academic ranks, so sure I was, you know, as replete with academic credentials as anybody out there.

Dr. Paul  2:38  
Yeah. And now you're one of the most published if not the most published in the world of COVID. So you have stayed very active academically, and you see patients.

Dr. Peter McCullough  2:47  
Yeah, I have I, you know, I've always been active academically and the way things work. Now we work in collaborative groups, we don't have to be in a brick and mortar medical school anymore, to publish. In fact, we just submitted a paper today to the New England Journal of Medicine, the largest autopsy paper in patients who have died after COVID 19 vaccines really stunning results. But I have over 70 Peer Reviewed papers in COVID. Despite the headwinds, I've had an initial letter was published in Lancet before that, the bias is starting to sweep in two editorial offices. But having said that, what I've always done, Paul is I've always cited the data as I will on this interview. And, you know, I've done it on national TV and of all the experts who brought on and discuss COVID. I'm the only expert that gives the first author and the content so people can look up the papers themselves. I've done it on, you know, ABC and Fox Newsmax one American news, real America voice all of them. Yeah, and everyone's become used to it. I think that's what set all the records on the Joe Rogan podcast, I told the Spotify producers, I'm gonna cite the data. And it pays off. I mean, that's the discipline that doctors should have in the media. Yeah.

Dr. Paul  4:00  
Well, I've shared a stage with you before I've heard you speak multiple times. I don't know anybody in the world that can cite the you know, the first author, the name of the article, what journal was published, and, and the key findings of the article, like, you just you have an amazing mind. So thank you for Ha, being persistent in in spite of the forces that are out there that are trying to keep us silent.

Dr. Peter McCullough  4:27  
Paul, the reason why it's, I think, is so critical, especially today is these unqualified, anonymous fact checkers who make false counterclaims. Yeah. And you know, every time that Yeah, I think they just they've given up on doing this for me anymore. But when they did it, I would just say, Well, here's the paper. This is, you know, what we're reviewing. There is no such thing as misinformation in our field. I've never taken a board question on this. It's never come up seeing a patient in the office. There's simply scientific data and You know, two or more interpretive points of view, as we discussed some papers today will have different viewpoints. That's what the scientific inquiry process is supposed to be. No one holds agency over the truth. No one holds information and therefore someone else is spreading misinformation. Those are propaganda techniques, propaganda terms. And I'll tell you another thing that doesn't exist as another weaponized term is called anti science, that some people are pro science and anti science. Science is a process we use it in medicine. Medicine is both an art and a science. So we actually use both as we take care of patients. So I think it's important to make sure we have a good command over the terms, not use any weaponized terms, and simply just discuss the issues at hand.

Dr. Paul  5:44  
Yeah, thank you. Well, before we dive into the science, and we will in a moment, just so folks have a sense of what you've gone through, and you don't have to go through the whole long list. But, you know, doctors who speak the truth, especially about vaccines, or COVID, are under fire. And are you able to speak at all about what you've had to endure?

Dr. Peter McCullough  6:05  
Yeah, I really don't want to make it about me. But briefly, I've been dismissed from two jobs with a perfect track record for no reason. Released from two editors ships by certified mail or email, again, no reason. stripped of all my NIH committees, various day safety monitoring board positions, any any external pharmaceutical consulting is gone. A stripped of two professorships with no Faculty Senate, no due process. And now the American Board of Internal Medicine is attempting to strip me off my medicine residency, my cardiology fellowship, again, of for non clinical reasons. ABIM is most egregious they, they launched a COVID misinformation policy in the fall of 2019. And then they went back to March of 2019, to my Texas Senate testimony. And they accused me of COVID misinformation. And then they convicted me in a closed meeting that I couldn't attend the people on the panel, none of whom had any publications and COVID. They'd had no experience in public testimony. They weren't competent, in my view to even judge the data when I finally got their decision. Now I'm appealing based on both substantive and procedural grounds. So this has been a huge administrative grind for you. This is not new to you, I know you've been through worse. But, you know, this has been years grinding away, I've been sued by a major health system for allegations of bringing them into the media, which I didn't. And then finally, after 18 months, the judge dismissed the case. But this is the type of thing that's going on. Now, for doctors who don't go along with the false government narrative.

Dr. Paul  7:51  
Yeah. Despite that massive amount of energy and effort it takes to you know, stand up for yourself and fight for your rights. You have been prolific at publishing 70 articles testifying, and then speaking, would you hazard a guess? How many times have you testified in the last three years?

Dr. Peter McCullough  8:11  
I've testified dozens of times, Paul, I've had probably 1000s of media clips out there I was. I've been on ABC and Fox Newsmax one American news. Been a frequent contributor by invitation to the hill in the first year of the pandemic, I have my own podcasts like you do America out loud talk radio, McCullough report, three years running weekly podcasts, I haven't missed a single week, and I have the top Doctor account on Twitter, of doctors who see patients that move my practice twice. And patients are, you know, coming in from all over the country to see me many times they simply just want to say thanks for me standing up for the truth. And, you know, I was the first doctor to publish a treatment approach to outpatient, COVID 19, and many others were working on it in France, elsewhere. So I'm gonna give credit to all the other doctors and then I was persistent in bringing that message to the world. And I was the first doctor Paul, the only doctor who's a public figure who question the COVID-19 vaccines in writing before they came out. And I published an op ed in the hill, August 7 of 2020. And the title of the Op Ed was the great gamble of the COVID-19 vaccine development program. And, you know, that's all for the lawmakers in Washington in the White House. They saw it all. And we're gonna go back I asked the question, Who else made the call? In Washington? Nobody did. Yeah. Ah,

Dr. Paul  9:38  
thank you for standing strong. Let's dive into some data. You I think, better than anybody are qualified to help us understand this whole COVID saga. Let's start with the origins of the SARS cov two virus and did the US have a role in it? Was there a gain of function? activities going on behind this

Dr. Peter McCullough  10:00  
We've learned a lot from the House Select Committee for investigation into the origins of the novel Coronavirus, led by Representative comer and assisted by Chip Roy and I've talked to chip Roy Texas representative multiple times. This is what we've learned that indeed, SARS cov. Two was engineered in the Wuhan Institute of virology. Now the blueprints for this from the DRC in North Carolina Chapel Hill. Ralph Barrick is senior author was beneath minute Sherry, the NGO eco Health Alliance and Peter designate were the ones who shut up the plans to the Chinese. All this was funded by the National Institute for Allergy and Infectious Disease, Anthony Fauci is division. And this was going on years before COVID berec published two papers 2015 declaring that they had created the chimeric virus, the artificial virus that could invade the humanized respiratory epithelial tract. They were also working on monoclonal antibodies and killed vaccines in those papers. So that all fits together. I think the bombshell came out that we learned that, you know, the government had three years of a narrative that said the vaccine came out of nature or came out of a fish market. And we learned that that was intentional. Anthony Fauci, former nya director and Francis Collins, head of the NIH, they actually had a meeting with Jeremy Farrar, the Wellcome Trust, Peter Datsik, eco Health Alliance, multiple Christian Andersen at Scripps, I went homes in Sydney. And they actually came up with an intentional academic deception plan. And they published 12 fraudulent papers and high level journals, saying that the virus arose out of nature when they knew it came out of the lab in Wuhan, China. Actually, it was their project. So they intentionally deceived America. And then the most, I think the most telling testimony was by former CDC director Redfield, who said, Listen, you in 2019, there was a series of irregularities in the lab, they had trouble with the ventilation system, they started to erase certain codes that were on file from the institute. And probably somebody got sick in the Wuhan Institute of virology, and they you know, the virus was out. By the time event 201 happened in the fall of 2019. The virus is already on the move. And that explains when they called certain leaders together, they had some US Senators Anthony Fauci all the pandemic response leaders that event to a one, they actually had George Gao, who's the Chinese CDC director, he flew over to the United States. So event 201 was not a planning meeting. That was an operational meeting. They knew COVID had come out they and they said what their plan was, was to actually railroad the population into mass vaccination.

Dr. Paul  12:58  
Yeah. Criminal, it seems to me. Unbelievable. Well, let's, I know some of our viewers are going, huh. Like if you've never heard that before, it's like no way. The people we had put our trust in actually intentionally created something that would harm the population. And then

Dr. Peter McCullough  13:17  
well, let's talk about that. Paul, you know, in 2005, the Health and Human Services and the UN our Congress wrote the prep act. And they said, we are going to be in the business of developing biological threats and countermeasures, you know, things so offense and defense, and they said that we're going to do this and they named them SARS, Anthrax, smallpox, monkey pox Marburg, and they said, Listen, if this ever happens, we're gonna pull the trigger on the prep act. And we're gonna basically release countermeasures. Countermeasures were things that in a sense, like we'd be under attack, and these countermeasures would be immune from any liability. vaccines were obviously prominent countermeasures. This was all in the prep act in 2005. So you know, we don't hear about ballistic missiles anymore, or, you know, anti missile radar shields and stuff. It's all now about Biola.

Dr. Paul  14:12  
Yeah, yeah. It

Dr. Peter McCullough  14:16  
warfare. This is the new normal. So the US has been in the business of making biological threats and coming up with countermeasures. It's big business. We found out on the DARPA website, DARPA, the research part of the military, that they had an a program in 2012, called the ADEPT p3 program. And they said, we will use messenger RNA to end pandemics for in 60 days. So this was, you know, on the books and 2012 that, that indeed, this was the plan. But But what's happened is there is in a sense of syndicate and a complex this is in our book, courage to face COVID-19 You're going to be astounded with this. It turns out that you know, in 2007 now CEO of Maderna, stiff and benzyl. He was a pharmaceutical rep for one of the companies and he became the kind of the country lead in the Belgium. And then he became CEO of biomar. You. And between 22,007 and 2011. Ballmer, you actually got the contract to design and build the biosecurity lab in Wuhan, China, this BSL four annex and train the personnel. So you know Baines L who still never has been asked about this is what was his involved in China involvement in China before he comes to a one one person company in Cambridge Maderna. And how did how did Maderna write patents before the COVID-19 was even known about and file them with the US government? So Maderna filed it with the NIH. So the US government's involved and now we bring it forward. We find there's all kinds of people are involved. Recently, Peter Hotez vaccine developer at Baylor in Houston. He's been called out because, you know, he had research grants in 2015 and 2016, with the Chinese Fudan University, developing receptor binding domain antigen vaccines as biological defense products. So he was in this bio defense area, you know, he's been out telling Americans to take vaccines, people are saying, wait a minute here. This is looking like an entanglement in our book. We call it the biopharmaceutical complex, so let me define it. The biopharmaceutical complex, we believe is a World Economic Forum, World Health Organization, the Wellcome Trust Rockefeller Foundation Gates Foundation, the vaccine incubator they formed Sepi that's gates and WF formed it a coalition of epidemic partners preparedness and innovation. GAVI UNITAID, the other vaccine, NGOs, eco Health Alliance, and then the regulatory agencies, in this case is actually HHS, CDC, NIH, FDA TGA, MHRA, Afra, Ema there's a lot of acronyms. But it looks like they're all together and the central coordinating center policy world economic forum. So if you ever have a question about who's in the complex in the Syndicate, just check them out to see their profile and the World Economic Forum. They've been going to Davos for meetings for years. Yeah. So I can tell you Governor Abbott in Texas, he's got a W E. F. profile. So does Justin Trudeau. So does the key regulators in Australia and through Europe, it's pretty obvious to to figure this out. Yeah.

Dr. Paul  17:42  
So I'm very worried about mRNA technology in general. My recollection, and you can speak to this from the science is in the past when they tried to make mRNA vaccines for RSV when they tried to make it for SARS and MERS. I don't think it went very well in the animal studies. But it seems like now they're just going to disregard all that and just move forward. It seems like it's coming like a freight train.

Dr. Peter McCullough  18:11  
messenger RNA has been an absolute disaster. This is what we know. A paper from Lolani and colleagues published in the British Medical Journal indicates that the US has had billions and billions of dollars of investment in this government dollars. And messenger RNA since 1985 1985. hasn't gone anywhere. I told you about the DARPA adept p3 program 2012 That was a bust and the messenger RNA that's used in fires and Maderna. This is terrible. They've replaced your normal uracil, which is a parameter in with a synthetic molecule called pseudo your ad that makes the messenger RNA essentially indestructible. And so now it gets into the body the body can't break it down with Rob a nucleus is the protein that encodes for is expressed on the cell surface, the body attacks it instantaneously. To make matters worse, they've loaded into on the lipid nanoparticle lipid nanoparticles go into the brain, the adrenal glands, the heart, the ovaries. Now we have papers, Paul, you'd be amazed Kasturi udah and colleagues has found messenger RNA circulating in blood at high levels for 28 days. And that's as long as they have looked. Rogen and colleagues from Stanford showed that the messenger RNA is stuck in lymph nodes for at least two months, the spike protein that it's produced and we get full length spike protein from the vaccine shown by Bruce Patterson and sell the X, you know, at least nine months maybe longer each shot. And you know, if people are following the program, Paul, this summer, they're coming up on their seventh shot, their seventh shot, they are loaded with messenger RNA Pfizer and moderna brand. And then super loaded with the SARS cov two Wuzhen spike protein, and this can be fatal in some people.

Dr. Paul  20:04  
Yeah. So can you speak to the difference in the perhaps the load of Spike protein, or the load of messenger RNA that's in the body from a natural hair? It's hard to call it natural when he had a bio engineered virus, if you will. But there is there a big difference if you get a natural exposure versus get the vaccine exposure.

Dr. Peter McCullough  20:30  
There's a huge difference now. So let me update you for the respiratory infection. Virtually all the Americans have had it now. It's already done. It's gone through the population. We have several prevalence data from the Framingham database as well as from your see a Texas at Houston School of Public Health, showing it virtually everybody has antibodies against the virus. Now we've all had it paper from Harvard, class and and colleagues did really good modeling 94% of people having clinical infections, probably know that 3% asymptomatic, so we've all had it. So what we know is that if we get the respiratory infection and we treated aggressively with virus, Seidel nasal sprays and washes, what's called the McCullough protocol, all the drugs used in combination, virtually none invades the body. So we don't get the installation of the spike protein in the body. What happens with the vaccine is a large dose of genetic materials is installed. And then it circulates in the body for a long period of time continuing to be deposited used deposited us, and we infer that the body is super loaded with Spike protein after the vaccine. We know that because the antibodies now which there's an extended range, LabCorp just extend the range are through the roof against the spike protein and someone's taking the vaccine. That's a proxy for how much spike protein they got exposed to. And also there's a weak correlate that we use called D dimer D dimer. But what we really need is just to measure the spike protein directly, labs companies are working on that right now.

Dr. Paul  22:01  
Okay. And so folks who've had the COVID shots, and they have this massive amount of of Spike protein, is it is it true that the natural infection exposes a person to the entire sequence whereas the vaccine vaccinated person, you their antibodies are responding to the narrow spike protein? Why is there a difference there?

Dr. Peter McCullough  22:30  
Well, it's true, the natural infection exposes, you know, probably 29 proteins in a paper by hikkim. And colleagues, they can measure antibodies against 15 of them. So the natural infection we get a much broader immunity plus we activate T cells, natural killer cells, B cells, so we get both cellular and antibody based immunity and it is protective. I mean, this is the natural infection. There's a paper by key metalli showing 97% protection against severe outcomes with any prior COVID. And then a key paper by chin and colleagues in the New England Journal medicine October of 2022. US prison system, this is amazing. 59,000 prisoners 17,000 staff huge study, if someone's been through the Omicron or delta waves, and they get another Omicron infection, zero risk of hospitalization and death zero. So that's the reason why the hospitals are empty. There's no emergency I had somebody today in my office get COVID It's not a big deal. We just use the nasal sprays few elements of the McCullough protocol, so natural immunity basically wins. What happened with the vaccine is it only exposes the patient to the spike protein. And it is the original spike protein that's been extinct a long time ago. So the body's immune system has been mis directed. And there's something called IgG subclass for switching, which basically means the body's immune system is misdirected and weakened and so a can't handle an infection very well when they when they get it and we know this now with a paper from Cleveland Clinic by Shrestha and colleagues showed every single shot there's a higher and higher risk of recurrent Omicron infections. The best health care workers are the unvaccinated. Yeah.

Dr. Paul  24:13  
So you and I know this and thank you for all those references to prove that point. However, many in America are hearing an opposite story on the news, right? All along. They were saying oh, this is the disease of the unvaccinated. The hospitals are full of people who are unvaccinated. I have a sense of why that was but can you explain it?

Dr. Peter McCullough  24:36  
It looks like it was a propaganda campaign ever. One day in around June of 2021. Like every single public figure, every single media person said it was a crisis on the unvaccinated. The the the efficacy of the vaccines can only be assessed in clinical trials. And what we know is the clinical trials never demonstrated a reduction in hospitalization and death. I've never, never. And now in emails that recently were released through FOIA, we know that CDC director walensky, was emailing other CDC officers in January of 2021, saying the vaccine was failing, and that fully vaccinated people were getting sick. And she said she's having calls with Anthony Fauci and with Francis Collins at the NIH. Yet they turned around and told America the vaccines worked and reduced acquisition of the virus transmission and reduced severe outcomes. It was a complete lie from the beginning. These are astounding numbers. What well, SK was referring to was a limited network of centers that that were reporting to the CDC during early 2021. They ultimately published their findings in the mm WR in May of 2021. But listen to this, the CDC had recorded 10,262 fully vaccinated, breakthrough infections, 10%, hospitalized 2% died, it was failing quick. And what we learned is it didn't stop transmission didn't reduce severe outcomes. And the studies were biased that made that claim most of the studies were done by investigators, you know, whose institutions received COVID Community core funding so they were getting money to promote the vaccines. But they never really ascertain the vaccine status. They as the electronic medical record assumes are unvaccinated. So if they did a quick data analysis from the EMR, they would say everybody in the hospitals unvaccinated because they never checked the CDC database not available to them. And people on the on the ventilator can't produce their vaccine cards. So that was a fraudulent play, that cases weren't adjudicated for whether or not they had COVID. Or if they were just coming in with something else and testing positive. And as time went on, we found out that people test positive for many months afterwards. The other thing that happened is that the virus mutated and became more mild. So people started to say, well, the vaccines working because hospitalizations are down. It's No, it's because the virus mutated. So, you know, because we didn't have a series of good randomized trial program. Any claims on vaccine efficacy at this point in time are invalid. There's no theoretical benefit. And actually, the FDA met this week and told the companies Well, why don't you make a booster for the X PB 1.5 variant? I just checked the Nowcast system. We're at 40% X, BB 1.5. And shrinking rapidly. Can you imagine by the fall, there's not going to be any 1.5 left. And the companies will have yet another useless vaccine

Dr. Paul  27:53  
chasing their tail. And you've looked at the data carefully in some of these studies. I'm puzzled I read that to be considered vaccinated, you had to have had your initial primary series and two weeks after that second dose, or two weeks after a booster for you to be considered vaccinated, meaning that a lot of vaccinated people were actually in these studies being classified as unboxed. Is that true?

Dr. Peter McCullough  28:18  
That's true. Remember, they should have used intent to treat principles, meaning once you intend to do it, everything counts. They were discounting all the infections between shot one and shot two, and there's an explosive number of infections. And they were not counting everything within two weeks of the second shot. So they were markedly overestimating efficacy because they were discounting all these infections the vaccinated were having,

Dr. Paul  28:43  
right. And when we look at the various data, we see there's a clustering of side effects and adverse events right after the vaccines are given and all those would be classified as unboxed people.

Dr. Peter McCullough  28:57  
That's true. In fact, that was in the the regulatory dossiers for Pfizer, Pfizer, under court order was forced to release their dossier Maderna, by the way, and Janssen is now off the market. novec still hasn't released their data. But Pfizer is an unqualified disaster. The FDA did not want to release this to Americans for over 55 years. And what we learned is people were explosively getting COVID after the first shot, it wasn't working. Pfizer recorded 1223 deaths within 90 days and released their vaccine, some on the same day they take the shot, and our government was trying to cover that up.

Dr. Paul  29:34  
Wow. How come it's still on the market?

Dr. Peter McCullough  29:37  
It shouldn't be. You know, I've called on December 2 20 December 7 2022. For all the vaccines to be pulled off the market. I made that call in the US Senate. The Association of American Physicians surgeons made the same call in March of 2023. And then ahead of that the World Council for health care started in the UK made the call June of June 11 of 2022. Subsequently, we've had calls in the UK Parliament, the EU parliament, Australian Parliament pulled the vaccines off the market, not safe for human use.

Dr. Paul  30:15  
But nothing happens. Even the

Dr. Peter McCullough  30:17  
emergency has been dropped or President Biden has dropped the COVID Emergency but the emergency use authorized vaccines continue. So it no one is following any of the regulatory laws. They're not following good guidance. This seems to be a test of wills. Will the population of the world decline these vaccines and let them die? Or will people still take them? Our CDC is still reporting 15% of people are taking boosters you know, I don't buy it right now because they're not updating the data the numbers seems frozen forever. The US military has completely dropped the vaccines I got firsthand knowledge from Lieutenant Colonel retired Green Beret Pete chambers, who told me that the most recent Defense Authorization Act finally got vaccines out of the new recruits the reservist and the currently enlisted and officer so it's gone. On the no college mandates group has done a great job where fewer than 100 colleges mandating the vaccines. Companies are dropping them, but they never apologized for it. And they never stayed who is responsible for it to begin with.

Dr. Paul  31:26  
So here's my biggest concern. I'm a retired pediatrician. My peers in pediatrics have been the biggest promoters of vaccines for the past several decades. And the hcip ACEP, the CDC arm that makes recommendations has put COVID on the child immunization schedule. And I know how my peers think they think, Oh, the CDC is recommending it and they are pushing it. i What do you think? I mean, what are the adverse events that parents should look out for? And obviously, I'm saying and I imagine you are also absolutely not kids are not at risk from COVID at all.

Dr. Peter McCullough  32:09  
No, at this point in time, they've all had it all there's there are no residual pockets of risk. Remember, there was never any school outbreaks, no kindergarten outbreaks. It was characteristically a very mild disease and children very manageable by the way, modifications to the McCullough protocol and others always handled and only people ever hospitalized. Were those who got no early treatment. And so we it's always a manageable infection. And when a SIP put the vaccines on the routine schedule, and these are emergency use temporary vaccines, when they put them on the permanent a SIP pill, I think that was the straw that broke the camel's back. People said listen, if this group is using their judgment, and if they really believe this, we need to take a look at the whole schedule. And that's what I've done is take a look at the whole schedule and figure out what in the world was going on with these. These vaccine enthusiast and boy, the news is not good. What parents need to look out for is horrendous outcomes. Paper by who she that and colleagues from Japan. Listen to this 14 year old girl takes shot one of Pfizer gets a little sick shot too. Few weeks later, it gets a little more sick, gets a booster six months later, has some trouble breathing that night. She tells her sister that the next morning dead in bed. Family is horrified. They get an autopsy. Every organ in the body is rotting out with inflammation COVID 19 vaccine multi system inflammatory disorder. Yeah, I mean, this is horrendous. This is autopsy proven it's peer reviewed literature. One case of this back, you know, early in 2021 should have been pulled off the market. Yeah, off the market. So yeah, so parents should look for even horrific things, including death. We see now broad side effects in the cardiovascular category myocarditis, 90% of boys 10% and girls, blood clots, intracranial hemorrhage and stroke like Haley Bieber, who's the wife of Justin Bieber, Guillaume Bray syndrome in in young people, hundreds of cases been reported as a neurologic paralysis. And then sadly, these immune system disorders mis C and V ITT of blood disorder, but it's an it's just basically a nightmare for children. They have no possibility of benefit, and it's all harm.

Dr. Paul  34:33  
Yeah. All harm folks. You hear that? It's, it's an insane proposition to be even having that on the schedule. I think it's time to disband the CDC. It's they've gone insane. I mean, they're just too conflicted apparently.

Dr. Peter McCullough  34:49  
What while it's clear that they've turned a blind eye to safety, they could care less if we lose children with the vaccine program and we simply can't have agencies and committees Making decisions if they don't care about the health of our children.

Dr. Paul  35:03  
Yeah. So I've been looking at vaccines for the last 20 years, the childhood schedule, and I'm so excited to see you're writing about this stuff. I your recent substack courageous discourse on HIV was just brilliant. I mean, you've got all the data and it's so nice to have a real scientist with a fresh look at this stuff. What are you finding as you sort of dive into this area? Is there a link between vaccines and autism?

Dr. Peter McCullough  35:29  
I gotta tell you, I've been astounded with what I found out. Now, first off, let me say I looked at my own vaccine schedule. I was born in 1962. And believe it or not, my mom took me in at two weeks and I started getting vaccinated. And I started getting vaccines. Back in the day, we took the oral oral polio vaccine, and then I was determined it didn't work. So then I was revaccinated with the shots, and it kept going, I was vaccinated and revaccinated over again. So I'm I'm very heavily vaccinated, my kids took all the vaccines to I didn't look at it critically when they were born. So let me tell you, just because, you know, I wasn't injured by the vaccine, so it doesn't make it okay. Yeah, I think it's very important for people to hear this just because they did fine with the vaccines doesn't mean it's okay. This is what we've learned. When I was a child, the rate of autism was one in 10,000. Now, that rate today, the CDC says is an emergency. It's 136. It's an epidemic. And there's an associated group of disorders that the Europeans are publishing on. It's called essence, this is important, I want to make sure we get these this right cluster, its attention deficit disorder, Autism Spectrum Disorder, Developmental Coordination, disability, intellectual language, and intellectual and language disabilities, and Tourette syndrome. And then in some cases, febrile seizures and epilepsy. So let me review the data, some contemporary studies, just the MMR alone, in a paper by Habib and colleagues, where they compared the GlaxoSmithKline versus the mark. So they were looking at both of them, but they had good quality data, the rate of febrile seizures 0.4%. They're solid on this, so it's real 0.4%. And then in a paper by Nielsen and colleagues, looking at all the febrile seizures in Sweden, it turns out 41% of them go on to develop one of these essence disorders, including autism spectrum disorders. So there's the linkage, and then what we're finding out is that as the vaccines are bundled into more intensive bundles, so you have MMR, which is measles, mumps rubella, a DTaP, which is diptheria, tetanus, pertussis, influenza, and now the Haemophilus Influenza zero type B, and then we would add COVID into it. It's the adding up of these at single administration, the bundling of this, which looks like it's pretty clearly related to autism, a paper by D long and D long, which is a brilliant analysis. children up to eight years old data from 2001 to 2007. Carefully put this all together, and it was clear once the vaccines were given in these multiples and the bundles that the P value for the development of autism is is you know, less than point o one, so it's highly statistically significant. So so we don't know people have said well it's it's it's a it's a preservative in one like Final Marisol mercury or it's aluminum in another. But you know, my analysis is it over time, there's been some adjustment in these in these adjuvants. And by the way, aluminum is used in allergy testing injections in our desensitization with allergies to I'm thinking now, certainly the adjuvants could play a role. But I'm thinking now that it's actually the immune system, that in some kids, the immune system is activated. In fact, there's about 200 papers on immune system dysregulation and the development of autism and these essences about 200 papers. So hyper vaccination leads to immune system is regulation. There are factors cytokines that are neurotropic cytokines, they go into the brain, just like they would with a measles encephalitis case or with rubella. Sarah, brightest case or with you know, other illnesses, you know, some of the viruses were vaccinated against, the virus itself may not cost too much brain damage, but the inflammation does when we give the vaccine we're causing that same inflammation, inflammation. So what I've determined is that, you know, while while other hypotheses are in play, like the ascendancy of the use of glyco, Speights, or potentially hypervitaminosis, D are other things in the baby formula. We know that older parents, siblings with autism, and then premature infants, you know, those are risk factors. But when you factor in these risk factors, hyper vaccination, and then the vignette of a febrile seizure, and the mother and father witnesses, and from that point forward, the child is never the same. I think we're building a pretty strong case that you know, that Andy Wakefield years ago, yourself and other pioneers, that you were right, all along, that hyper vaccination is a determinant of autism.

Dr. Paul  40:55  
Yeah, it's huge. This makes it very, you know, in medicine, we have this thing called informed consent. And I'm sure you've done this, all your career, when you're talking to a patient about some procedure that maybe they're needing to undergo, or some medication, and here's the potential benefits, here's the potential risks, you weigh it out, and then they get to decide. My peers still believe that vaccines are safe and effective. So they're still just a blanket statement. They're safe and effective. They hear this from the CDC. So then when you when you put that side of the equation against, while these diseases can kill you, which, you know, I mean, some of them can. That's the extent of their informed consent, which is so inadequate, when you know as much as you and I know, you have to if you're gonna give informed consent, you've got to give the full story. And now it looks like vaccinating doesn't make much sense when you balance out the risks. No, I

Dr. Peter McCullough  41:59  
mean, there's many 10s of 1000s of cases of autism. And it ranges in a spectrum. Some of the children, you know, are homebound. They're 24 by seven full care, screaming 24 by seven year. I know some colleagues with children like this than others. They're relatively you know, mainstreamed intelligence, by the way, is quite variable. It's not a form of mental retardation. It's quite variable. But you know, compared to, you know, these very rare outcomes, for instance, over 15 years of cases of measles in the United States that were 34 deaths, and it was largely just in you know, cases is just supportive cares like any other viral encephalitis, by the way, a decent proportion of the measles hospitalizations and deaths. They're fully vaccinated. So measles doesn't stop severe disease. Same thing is true with mumps, diphtheria and pertussis now, diphtheria and pertussis they're treated with azithromycin just a Z Pak nowadays. So we have methods to easily treat a lot of these conditions. We have modern ICU care. I was on Twitter spaces recently and and a doctor who worked for one of the big pharmaceutical companies said there's, you know, there's hundreds of 1000s of measles deaths per year and we have to keep up on measles vaccination. You know, it's not true in the United States. That's certainly not true in the United States. It's, it's very rare to have measles, it's easily treated. We can treat the other illnesses, deep tissue wounds we treat, you know, for tetanus if there and so, you know, we have a situation where most of the vaccines are not medically necessary, not clinically indicated. And the risks to the child may far outweigh the benefits in most cases. Now, people could say, well, wait a minute, you know, we still have some severe things to talk about, like Polio. Well, polio was going down was considerably before the vaccines even came. And the first ones, the ones I got, for instance, they didn't even work anyway. So then we had to be revaccinated And actually, the oral polio vaccines just contributed more polio in the water supply. So it just it was just it was a terrible development. So you know, the polio vaccines didn't end polio. We could conceivably smallpox over 70 years reduce smallpox infections, but human hygiene improved. I got the smallpox vaccine too. I checked out my vaccine card. And and so now we're down to some things that come off plus influenza B. Do you know over about 10 years of data, there were 4000 cases of Haemophilus Influenza only 77 were serotype B, right, meaning we get hung up but there's only this one stereotype. And you know, the large fraction of them were either partially or fully vaccinated.

Dr. Paul  44:56  
Anyway, so is against the wrong strain.

Dr. Peter McCullough  44:59  
Yeah, so were vaccinated against a pretty rare strain and it doesn't even work anyway. So none of these vaccines look pretty good. I gotta say probably the one that's most compelling, would be rubella. Now, rubella didn't exist. When I was a kid, I remember they started a rubella campaign. And before they started, there was about 20,000 cases of congenital rubella syndrome, German measles. Yeah, it was

Dr. Paul  45:24  
devastating when you acquire it while pregnant,

Dr. Peter McCullough  45:26  
right? It was just like Zika virus is terrible when you get it when you're pregnant. And it turns out of the kids who survived pause, interesting of the kids who survived to birth, about 10% had autism back in the 60s. So the congenital rubella syndrome, believe it or not, did result in some autism. Yeah. And then the rubella vaccines came in and you know, the number of congenital rubella cases plummeted from 20,000 to two, it really worked. Now, who needs the vaccine? It's women as they approach the reproductive years, what happened? You know, it was the decision of the CDC ASAP. And I think at the time was a public health service, to say that everybody has to take care, you know, young boys don't get significant German measles. It's like, actually, we over vaccinated the boys, myself included, and it simply wasn't needed. But the rubella vaccine looks compelling. And I have to say another vaccine, I think that looks I think prudent, and that would be Hepatitis B in two circumstances, one, in babies who are born to mothers with active hepatitis B, where we want to get them some immunity, that's pretty rare, like an active IV, drug abusing mother. It's more frequent in Asia, where they do have more endemic hepatitis B. And then I'd say healthcare workers, people with working with blood and body fluids as they approach healthcare. But that's it. You can see the over reaction here, every baby now has been vaccinated in the first day of life with hepatitis B, all these normal babies, they're not, you know, them all the mothers in America are not IV drug abusers. So I think we could basically do what you've proposed in your manuscripts and Hooker and Miller, and that is go natural. And so the outcomes are going natural, no vaccines at all are spectacular. Amazed, as you've reported, lower rates of asthma, atopic dermatitis, knee for tympanostomy tubes, attention deficit disorder, autism, other neuro psychiatric disorders, it's absolutely stunning, going natural, far better than following the vaccine schedule. Yep.

Dr. Paul  47:32  
And it's not that dangerous. You know, I when I coach people today, because I don't practice medicine anymore. I'm retired. That was another whole story. But when I coach people today, you know, I say, Well, you know, you've got to weigh it out, and what are you most afraid of? And really the, the logical decision now, knowing what we now know, is, let nature protect you. natural immunity is amazing. So thank you for Wow, you're a fast study. I know that about you. You're just prolific in your ability to analyze studies and figure stuff out. So we've needed you in this realm as well. I wanted to ask you one of the questions, we get close to winding it down. I feel like scientific integrity has really taken a hit with COVID. It's like so much science anymore, because it's so pharma dominated with conflicts of interest. It almost feels like tobacco science where, you know, you have good science showing one thing, but the pharmaceutical industry wants to bury that with a bunch of junk studies. So then things well, okay, you got one study that may be but we have 10 studies that prove the opposite. How do we get how do we recover the integrity of medicine? How do we recover the the integrity of science itself?

Dr. Peter McCullough  48:54  
We're in dark times right now, Paulie, what we've learned is, is things went off the rail. With vaccines decades ago, there's been about 150 years of vaccine ideology where no one could challenge the vaccines. They were assumed safe, and no one could actually review them. And in fact, fraudulent papers were published, there was one published around 2,001st author is Madson, a separate one from the same database by having these studies claimed there was no relation between the MMR vaccine and autism. And well, how did they do this? They looked at automated sources of data. And they assumed that when the MMR didn't show up in a billing code that they didn't take the MMR so they had a group of vaccinated in the Medicine study, they came up with 82% of the kids vaccinated. But 18% on vaccinated This was published in the Journal of Medicine. I said, Wait a minute. During that time period, there was only about 2.5% Have Americans unvaccinated? What about this 18.2. So I immediately thought that they didn't have the right classification of who was vaccinated not and sure enough, I found a paper published at that time showing that in in Denmark, the, the automated data system was not getting complete capture of vaccination and easily, I think it was 55% of those quote, who were unvaccinated. In fact, were vaccinated. So the Madson paper is actually flooded, because both groups are vaccinated. And of course, when both groups are vaccinated, you're not going to see any relative difference in autism rates. So Matt Madson and then the associated paper Hedvig, an animal's internal medicine really can just be tossed out based on their invalid. So in the vaccine world, when it came to declarations that the vaccines didn't cause autism, I think every one of those studies is flawed. And, and they are quickly trying to dismiss any concerns to keep the vaccine ideology going. We've seen the same thing now with COVID, that we see papers all the time, that say, Well, this is pretty rare. And then they get into it now is interested if they, if they describe the rarity enough, sometimes the editors let it get in, let me give an example paper published in a very high level cardiology journal by showing colleagues from Korea, you know, do a calculation based on spontaneous reporting of myocarditis being rare in young people? Well, we don't use spontaneously important safety data and divide it by the entire population, because we never know of cases that aren't reported, because they may have died at home or doctors don't recognize it. So they use this invalid technique to get to a low incidence. And they may make that the play of the paper, but I looked in detail, believe it or not, in Korea, they are reporting 480 cases of myocarditis severe enough to be hospitalized. 21 of them went on ECMO, which is a very serious level of life support, and they died, they died 21 Young people died, despite full ICU report. So the chill report is an indictment. For instance, that is a disaster. But the only reason why it's published is because the authors are trying to feign that this is rare. So it takes a critical reader, we are now relying on the preprint service system a lot, which is fair, I just reviewed some CVC papers, they're referencing 50% or more preprint server papers. So we can use a preprint service system. And actually take a look at the data ourselves. independent medical journals are coming forward, the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons is now a popular Independent Medical Journal, The Journal of Science, Technology, public health and law by the Institute of Applied Technology, that's another one. And you'll see that truth will ring true. We have a situation with COVID that 25% of the population didn't take the vaccine, and the doctors are still telling some of the patients to take the vaccine, they are running and changing doctors, to doctors who are being honest about the vaccines. And I tell you, the medical community better figure this out, because there's going to be a big shift in patient preference.

Dr. Paul  53:14  
Yeah. You just gave me an idea of a question to ask you that. I've never thought of asking somebody of your caliber. How do you and I really want to know the answer for myself. I like to find good studies. And I don't like missing good studies, because I didn't know they were there. What is your approach? Now you speak to other physicians and scientists out there? What is the best approach to make sure you don't miss good science? Like how do you how do you get a hold of all the articles you need to get a hold of?

Dr. Peter McCullough  53:44  
Well, you know, I work personally, I work very hard at it. I get up very early in the morning, I dedicate hours of scholarship and I'm still in practice. So I go to the office, I'm seeing patients taking patient phone calls. But I certainly work hard at it. Now I've published more than anybody in my field. So I'm quick with the data. I just understand how to interpret papers. I use the National Library of Medicine every day. But I rely on communication systems. I started one for COVID called C 19 D And every day, there's periodic updates. And you know, I'm always been alerted to papers. I started the substack courageous discourse, where I make the graphical abstract, quick commentary, voiceover sometimes key videos and we get this out. And we just create dialogue. And I'm really focusing now on COVID 19 vaccines in general, autism and actually transgenderism. transgenderism politics, a topic for another day. I'd like to take it up with you, but there is a connection between it all

Dr. Paul  54:50  
fascinating. Yeah, well, we'll definitely take that up on another time. It's it's happening. I have a grandson who's 17 and he said it All over his school. It's just like, you know, five years ago, it was almost unheard of. And now it's it's the thing, a lot of social pressure involved, but we'll talk about that some more for sure. So as we wrap it up two things first. What's coming next? You know, we've seen these huge organizations that you were able to connect, who are up to no good and in one sense. What do you think's coming next, and should we be afraid?

Dr. Peter McCullough  55:33  
While this biopharmaceutical complex is giving us all the overt signaling? Bill Gates Tadros to the who? Anthony Fauci, former nya director, Peter Hotez in Houston, controversial vaccine developer, they are all stating with great enthusiasm, that there will be another pandemic, and that'll be far worse than COVID. But why are they saying this? And why are they so happy about it? I think we should take them seriously. There could be another pandemic, could be another respiratory virus we need to be ready principles of the McCullough protocol virus Seidel nasal washes and sprays, key over the counter nutraceuticals and supplements everybody ought to go to my website, Peter McCullough md.com and get armed because there could be another pandemic. I personally don't think it's going to happen. Because it's very hard for a virus to infect the entire world, we may see little, little sputtering outbreaks like monkey pox. And by the way, the complex tried to pull the trigger on monkey pox. Even today, the CDC is telling people to get both monkey pox and COVID shots today, the CDC to me. I think the other thing to watch now is this transgenderism. And this convergence with autism is going to be explosive, explosive. The Autism Advocacy Network has come out fully in support of transgender medicine, and they're trying to fight all the legislation to shut it down. The American Civil Liberties Union has come out fully in support of transgenderism, trying to block any state regulations on this. All the academic medical centers are going wild with surgical and hormonal programs, targeting the children largely with autism, The Endocrine Society, the American College of Pediatrics and the American College of Sciences and gynecology, all fully supporting transgender medicine. I think this is going to be a really dark time in medicine similar to the days of frontal lobotomy. Frontal lobotomy went on for years, Paul, you know, it basically took people with minor psychiatric problems and made them vegetables. And it took Peter Breggin, who's, you know, still alive today, a modern day hero to stand up to it and say, No, it's got to stop. Joe, the guy who's promoting frontal lobotomy, he got a Nobel Prize. He got it. So listen, medicine goes in bad directions. Right now. We're at a time where that's happening. I'm Dr. Peter McCullough. Paul, I'm gonna have to sign off and jump on another show. Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Paul  58:06  
Thanks for coming on the show. God bless.

I look forward to running together with the wind at our backs, revealing the science that gives clarity in our world that's full of propaganda and misinformation. Visit our website, doctors and science.com Sign up. Donate if you can. Your support makes a difference. And let's make this the weekly show the world has been waiting for. Thanks for watching. I'm Dr. Paul.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

​Dr. Paul  0:00  
Hey Paul, welcome to with the winds science revealed. Today I speak with Dr. Shannon kroner. She has a doctorate in clinical psychology, a master's in special education and we discuss her new children's book. I'm unvaccinated and that's okay. This book tells the story of an unvaccinated boy who has an older vaccine injured sibling, and what life has been like for him navigating the world. With all these pressures to vaccinate. We cover that journey one takes when trying to understand vaccine effects and vaccine risks. Enjoy the show.

My from the heart today is about being present for each other. Yesterday was my mom's would have been my mom's 91st birthday. And that her celebration of life. The underlying theme that came up over and over again was how she was present for others throughout her life. My mom's name was Winnie and she loved Winnie the Pooh. So I wanted to share this story that really exemplifies what being present is all about. Today was a difficult day said Who do you want to talk about it? Asked piglet know who said after a bit now? I don't think so. That's okay said Piglet and he came and sat beside his friend. What are you doing? Asked poo. Nothing really said piglet. I know what difficult days are like I quite often don't feel like talking about it on my difficult days either. But goodness continued piglet difficult days are so much easier when you know you've got someone there for you. And I'll always be here for you prove as Pusat they're working through in his head his difficult day. While solid reliable piglet sat next to him quietly swinging his little legs. Who thought that his best friend had never been more right. Thank you, mom, for being there for so many throughout your life. And thank you to all of you who've been there for me and for others.

Welcome Dr. Shannon kronor. It was so much fun being with you in Austin, Texas for the pandemic three, the Great Awakening inaugural movie.

Dr. Shannon Kroner  2:55  
That was awesome. It really it was a great movie. And a great event.

Dr. Paul  3:00  
Yeah, it sure was, and I got to sit next to you for dinner before that event. So got to learn a whole lot more about you. And wow, I just love what you've done with your life and your career. You. You have a doctorate in clinical psychology, Master's in special education. You've worked with special needs kids since 2001. You're the founder and director of freedom of religion United solutions. You've built a coalition their faith leaders of many faiths to stand united for the religious freedom of vaccine choice. Yes. And then your latest caution. What really got me interested in getting you on the show here is your amazing children's book, titled I'm unvaccinated and that's okay. And it's an easy read. It's done with you know, beautiful cartoon illustrations, but it's really an important read for parents and kids. It's you tell the story of an unvaccinated unvaccinated boy who has an older vaccine injured sibling, what a common scenario, right? We'll talk about that some more. And what life is like for him navigating the world with so many pressures to vaccinate. So, welcome to the show.

Dr. Shannon Kroner  4:07  
Thank you. Thank you.

Dr. Paul  4:09  
If you wouldn't mind starting with really your youth and young adulthood and then career sort of what led you to this place?

Dr. Shannon Kroner  4:20  
Okay. Um, well, in my youth, I was vaccinated. And and actually, you know, I I was a, I would say I was a pretty healthy kid up until about five years old. No one's ever asked me about my youth. So that's really interesting. In an interview, so I was allergic to our dog. And my pediatrician suggested that I go get allergy shots. And my mom, I nobody talks about allergy shots in the vaccine world, you know, um, But my mom would take me to get allergy shots. And she actually, to this day, she still regrets it because it was after getting allergy shots shots that I developed asthma. So I'm not, you know, I've never really taken the time to look into what the preservatives and stuff are in allergy shots. But, um, but there was definitely a correlation between me getting those allergy shots and then ending up with asthma because it was all within the same time period. So interesting.

Dr. Paul  5:31  
I mean, I could just add from my own research and findings that asthma is a very common condition that develops in the highly vaccinated. And so, you know, your allergies to dogs was also perhaps, in some part triggered by the shifts that happened to the immune system, because you were highly vaccinated.

Dr. Shannon Kroner  5:52  
Yeah, probably, I mean, you know, back, when I was a kid, there weren't as many as there are today. So, I actually, I don't know, you know, my mom followed whatever the schedule was back in the early, late 70s, early 80s. So, um, so I got what I was meant to get, right. Um, but then, um, so, you know, I went through life with asthma, allergies, whatever. And then, and then in the early 2000s, I started working with kids with special needs. And, um, you know, that was when I got my first understanding of what autism is, I, I actually started working as what is called a floor time therapist. And so and I was trained as a floor time therapist to work with the littlest kids that have autism or other other kind of disabilities that I was working with. And it was really like play therapy, showing them like, instead of lining up the cars that many little kids do with autism, where they line up the cars and like, focus on the wheels going turning, I was meant to show them the functions of a car so that like it can drive, you know, over a hill and under a tunnel and stuff like that, and, and help them learn appropriate play. And so that was my job as a full time therapist, and I also have to do the intake with new families. Whenever I would do an intake with new family members or with new families, then the parents would always say the same thing over and over again about how their child was healthy, born fine. Pregnancy was usually normal. And then after a round of shots around, you know, one to two years old, something changed within their child, they lost speech, they lost eye contact, different behaviors developed. And it was, I kept hearing the same story over and over again about how their child changed after vaccination. And, you know, this was in my early 20s, I was not yet a parent. So it was interesting to me, but it wasn't of concern, because I wasn't vaccinating my own kids. I didn't have kids to vaccinate or not vaccinate. So, but it was something that was concerning to me that I kind of had on my radar. So that when I did have my first child, which I was pregnant in 2009, and that was during the swine flu. I knew that I wanted to approach vaccination differently. And, and not do you know, during that time, my concern, I thought it was the CDC recommended schedule. That was what I thought was the problem. I didn't really think that it was the individual vaccines. I thought it's too many at at one time.

Dr. Paul  9:11  
And receptive of you. That is one of the challenges for sure.

Dr. Shannon Kroner  9:15  
Yeah. And so, you know, that's how in my mind that here I was, I was pregnant. And I was, that's what I was going to do was like one at a time or two at a time, and not five at a time. And then it was the fall. And it was this. We had the swine flu, and I was still working with children. And so my doctor encouraged me to get the flu shot and the swine flu shot. And so I had known enough about vaccines to decline the swine flu shot because I felt that it was too new and there wasn't enough studies and I didn't want to risk that. And then I was convinced to get the flu shot because I was told it was preservative free. And in my mind, I thought, well, if If it's preservative free, that means that it's safe, and that there are no toxins in it. And so there shouldn't be an issue. Well, I got the preservative free flu shot, I was only 11 weeks pregnant. And it landed me in the ER, because I ended up shortly after receiving the flu shot. I ended up profusely leaking amniotic fluid, it was as if my water broke, and here I was only 11 weeks pregnant. And when I went to the ER, they told me that I had lost, you know, all of my amniotic fluid and that I lost the baby. And then the next day, I went to my, my OB, who told me, Well, I've lost 95% of my amniotic fluid. But the good news is, is that my baby had a strong heartbeat, so I had not lost him. And but he had said that there's no chance for survival without amniotic fluid. And so, you know, I then went and saw got another opinion, who told me the exact same thing that and really, that doctor encouraged me to end the pregnancy. And I said to him, I was like, you know, I don't have it in me to stop a heartbeat. And if it's God's will for me to have this child, then I will. And if it's God's will, for me not to have this child that it's not meant to be, then naturally, I will lose the child. And so I kind of had that mindset. Everyone around me thought I was insane. Family and friends,

Dr. Paul  11:46  
I totally understand what your what you went through the mom of my biological sons, we had the same experience. Really, ours was triggered by back then they were doing for we were elderly parents. And back then they were doing chorionic villus sampling, they really don't do that anymore. They kind of pinch a little bit off of the tissue. And in our case, and I guess it's a fairly common complication that created a big leak. So we were in right in that boat. 95% of the fluid was gone, we were told to abort. And there was like, maybe a one to 3% chance of survival, I think, is what they quoted us. And we couldn't terminate a pregnancy. It just it just feels far along. What was your Gosh, when we were a little further along than you were, I think, but not much. And our outcome wasn't as good as yours. We ultimately lost that pregnancy at 23 weeks, which was rough. However, sorry. I know exactly what you went through. And it's it's a huge thing. You know, you can have all sorts of philosophical ideas, but when it's you and your baby, and you're being asked to end their life, even if there's the tiniest chance that they would be okay. How do you end life? It was difficult, it just brought up another whole way of looking at things.

Dr. Shannon Kroner  13:04  
Yeah. And I went to several different doctors to get several different opinions. And each one said, the same thing is that, you know, I was being stupid for not having not having an abortion. And I knew that within myself, I could not live with myself, if I was the one to stop the heartbeat. Yeah, that would have changed, that literally would have changed me forever. I would have had regret for the rest of my life. And I don't know that I could have lived with myself having made some kind of a decision like that. And so I just left it up to God. And I left it up to myself to do the research. And so I actually did the research on how to replenish the amniotic fluid. Not a single doctor told me that I could do that. But I found some studies out of India of women who had low amniotic fluid and what they were doing, and it was something so simple, it was just being hydrated. And so no one told me that if I was drinking a lot of water, I would make more amniotic fluid. And so I I put myself on bed rest, and I drank water, like it was going out of style. It was all I drank all day long. And miraculously by week 20, my amniotic fluid was 100%. And the doctors they thought, this is a miracle. They said, I have never seen anything like this before in our entire practice. And and really, it's because they encourage women to you know, get end the pregnancy and I was one of those people who said no, and you know, I thankfully I'm really happy that I listened to my heart and followed, you know, my own path. Because today my son, he's 13 years old. He's happy he's healthy. He He's smart. He's funny. He's everything I've ever wanted in a child. And so,

Dr. Paul  15:06  
you know, what you just shared there just hit me. So doctors today do not have a clue about what it's like to have a unvaccinated child, because they universally vaccinate everybody, right? So they have this one size fits all CDC follow CDC schedule approach. And unlike, you know, folks like yourself who just figured this out, largely, I think probably because of your career of working with all those autistic kids, you went through exactly what I went through, in fact. I mean, it was the same period. I was it was in the early 2000s. Onward, that I was hearing all those stories. And I mean, how many times do you have to hear, you know, my child was doing great. They were smiling, making good eye contact, they were vocalizing they were doing this that a normal kid, and sometimes within days, sometimes weeks, sometimes months, they lost their kid in terms of no eye contact, sometimes no social often no language, and the spinning and the flapping and the pain. I mean, you know, you dealt with it right? How many times do you think you've heard that story?

Dr. Shannon Kroner  16:14  
Oh, I couldn't even tell you how many. I mean, it's it's like 1000s. Actually, I've been doing this work since 2001. And I've, and I know people personally, I have friends who have had that story. I've had clients who've had that story. I I've it it's common, actually, unfortunately, it's common. And I'll tell you, right now, I just saw a study where the rates in California are one in 22 kids with autism. I mean, one and 22 is that's like that number is, is crazy. That's scary number

Dr. Paul  16:51  
is and and when we know what we know, you and I because we've done the research, we've looked into the data that's out there, and folks, it's out there if you if you if this is new news to you, you're watching and going wait a minute, vaccines are triggering autism, or unvaccinated kids are not getting autism. And that's news to you. Do your research. Don't take our word for it. But you and I both had that same experience, right?

Dr. Shannon Kroner  17:17  
Oh, yeah. I mean, I've I've heard, not only have I heard stories, but I've seen stories, I've had parents show me videos, or show me pictures of, for instance, like first birthday parties, where the child is excited and will blow out a candle on the cake or will open a present or saying a couple words. And then by the second birthday, or the third birthday is just like a completely different child where they don't know to blow out a candle on a cake. Yeah. And they don't know to get excited about opening a present. And so I've seen those home videos. And there's no convincing me, I'm convinced. And I I've seen it firsthand. I've seen it for myself.

Dr. Paul  18:02  
Yeah, as have I in my practice. I mean, I've seen I had hundreds, probably a little less than 1000 of those stories that you've seen in the 1000s. But you know, you when you hear those stories, and especially like you had you were taking intakes, and you're hearing those parents for the first time? Well, maybe not the first time, but they're having to tell you the whole story. And so they have to go through the heart wrenching emotional telling of losing their kid. I mean, how often were they in tears? You can't Yeah, you can't ignore that.

Dr. Shannon Kroner  18:36  
No, and not only that, but it doesn't only affect the mother and the father. But it's also affecting siblings too. Because, you know, I remember some of my earlier clients that I kids that I worked with, you know, autism, for whatever reason, right now, there's a lot of people who are high on the spectrum that are trying to glorify, glorify autism. But I've really I've seen firsthand the struggle that it is, and it's not fun, and my heart breaks for so many of these families that followed along with what their doctor instructed them to do, and ended up with a child that, you know, is not able to communicate. And, you know, and so I feel bad for i I've heard those stories, I've seen those stories. I know those stories and, and actually, my book talks about exactly that. And and it's actually have like a small like, dedication at the beginning that talks about how this is dedicated to the you know, the parents who have seen vaccine injury and then also the kids that are dealing with vaccine injury. And that I see that because often they are ignored or they are dismissed. They're told these are parents parents are telling people their stories, and they are told that they're crazy. Or that the stories are untrue. And can you I can't even imagine what that must be like for a parent who has to go through the pain and suffering and trying to find the right therapies and having adult children that are still in diapers and things like that, and being told that they're crazy, or lying about their own stories.

Dr. Paul  20:33  
Yeah. So that gaslighting that's going on, it's like, you know, you do the right thing, the right thing, you follow your doctor's instructions, orders, if you will, and you get all the vaccines, and then you end up with a damaged child. Not always, of course, but it's happening way too much. And then when you go and say, look what happened. They they tell you Oh, no, that that wasn't the vaccines total, total denial. It's it's absolutely insane. Absolutely insane. So one of the things you did was created, tell tell me a little bit about your religious Coalition for vaccine choice? How what brought you to the to the even How'd you even get that thought? I mean, it's, I love that the concept?

Dr. Shannon Kroner  21:14  
Yeah. So you know, so I live in California, where we have the strictest vaccine laws in the nation. And in 2015, we lost our religious exemptions for children in order for them to go to school. And then in 2019, we lost our medical exemptions for children to go to school. And so when that happened, and I had known back in 2015, adult mandates were coming, I knew it, I knew was going to happen. I did not know how I never foresaw that we would have a pandemic of this kind of nature and craziness. But I, I didn't know that somehow, adults were next. And so when SB 276, passed in 2019, removing the medical exemptions. I thought to myself, you know, and not only that it happened in California, and California was kind of sets the stage for the rest of the country. So I knew that it was going to be, you know, the removal of exemptions was gonna be happening throughout the country in different states, which it has. It's happened now in Connecticut and Maine, and New York. It almost happened in New Jersey. And so I decided to start a faith coalition in 2019. So pre pandemic, I started a faith coalition where I was literally like cold calling faith leaders, and of all different faiths. So I work with I have a coalition of faith leaders that are pastors, priests, rabbis, there's a couple Imams, there's a monk, who are all have united to protect the religious freedom of vaccine choice. And prior to the pandemic, we had our legal team write up exemptions for childhood vaccines, so that kids could file a religious exemption in the states where they were allowed. They weren't allowed in California. So my hands were kind of tied there. And then the pandemic hit. And the moment that that happened, I knew, Okay, adult mandates are coming. And I had my, our lawyers write up exemptions for adults for the COVID vaccine. And so, so we were ready to go when the pandemic happened. And since the pandemic to date, we've helped 1000s it's somewhere around 50,000 people that we've actually helped keep their jobs stay in school. You know, they weren't, we weren't. We have exemptions on our website that are for first responders, medical care professionals, teachers, we've helped a lot of teachers throughout the country keep their jobs. You know, they're also for the average person who has any job. And then we also our organization, it was also the voice for in the very beginning. We were the first voice for our military, because the military was being mandated to get the COVID vaccine and I actually I was at a church where there was someone high ranking guy from the Navy who was speaking and, and I was so he and I were both speaking and he was speaking about how he's not sure what kind of what decision to make because he didn't want he has a family to feed and take care of. And he didn't want to get the COVID vaccine, but he also didn't want to lose his job. And he was speaking on the same stage as I was and I He said to him, you know, I want to help let me help you. So he and I formed a team with another high ranking Marine, and a couple other guys in the military to really fight the mandates for our military. And so we were the first organization, as a group, we went to DC, and met with, it was something like 17 Members of Congress and Senate to talk about, and we brought all the data, the guy who was working with in the Navy, he's like a big time stats guy. And so he put together all the data. And we brought that we met with, we met with people like Jim Jordan, and Rand Paul, and Lauren Buber, and all different and Daryl Eisah. And we, you know, shared the data of what this was, what these mandates were going to do to our military, and how we're kicking out some of our best people, and that it's causing safety issues with our country, and that it could potentially be a serious safety crisis, if we, you know, kick out half of our military, which started to happen. And, you know, and thankfully, last year, the exemptions were dropped. But towards the end of last year, I think it was like maybe November or something like that. But we were, we were fighting from like the very beginning and sharing that information with them in Congress and in Senate, in DC. And so, I've really been in this for for a long time, in the trenches fighting for freedom.

Dr. Paul  26:48  
Thank you for that. What's the website? I imagine it's still active and a place people can go for as Oh, yeah.

Dr. Shannon Kroner  26:53  
So people can get I mean, right now, they're not they've kind of dropped all the mandates. So while most of the mandates have been dropped, but if people ever need an exemption even for you know, college exemptions, right, or school exemptions, it's four, United solutions.org, fo r United solutions.org. And our exemptions are free. But we are a nonprofit organization. So we just asked that, you know, if someone uses one of our exemptions to donate if if they are able to, yeah, and, and then if you go to the website for United solutions.org, you can actually see all the faith leaders that we work with, some of them are very recognizable, they've been big voices throughout the pandemic. And that's an important

Dr. Paul  27:43  
issue. You know, I mean, they've put the COVID vaccine on the childhood schedule, the CDC recommended schedule, which is insanity, because kids don't get sick in a major way from COVID. It's not a dangerous disease for kids. But it's now on that schedule. So I think parents around the country will perhaps benefit from your resource, when they go in to their pediatrician for that six month visit, you can now get it as young as six months. Go prepared, go go with your it's a legal document, correct?

Dr. Shannon Kroner  28:17  
Yeah, well, our lawyers, they wrote it. And you know, our exemptions are constitutionally based, right, we have our First Amendment, which says that we have religious freedom. And that is what our exemptions are based off of, based off of our First Amendment, and parents need to know their rights, and they cannot be discriminated against if their religious beliefs, you know, say that in and they don't have to actually be part of a specific religion, either. And that's what our constitution says. So you don't have to be Christian or you don't have to be Jewish to say that you don't want a vaccine. However, on our website, it does. We do list all the reasons per religion, why someone may not want to get vaccinated. However, you know, and I've actually spoken at length with faith leaders about this, people can literally, you know, believe that the clouds are telling them not to vaccinate, and that could be their religion and or their guidance from God. And, and that's all you need is that, you know, a higher power is instructed me not to get a vaccine. And that's it. That's your religious belief. So, you know, people don't have to actually attend church or temple on a regular basis to have a working religious exemption.

Dr. Paul  29:48  
Right. So I think you were talking about the military and how it was really decimating our military. I mean, we saw this in the medical field so doctors and nurses who weren't Be willing to get that job, lost their jobs, firefighters and law enforcement, teachers, as you mentioned, you know, in all walks of life, I mean, college aged kids having to roll up their sleeves or not be able to go to college. I know nurses who had to drop out of nursing school because they couldn't do their clinicals your website and information, it's powerful. And folks, don't ever again, feel forced to do something that you just know, in your gut, your intuition tells you this is not the right place, or time to be doing what you're doing. We are losing bodily integrity with all the rollout of all the laws. How can a government or a pharmaceutical industry or big business force you to take a medical procedure? It just doesn't even make sense. So thank you for the work you've done. Thank you so much. Thank you. Now I want to pivot to the whole reason I got you want to show your children's book, I'm unvaccinated. And that's okay. Tell me a little bit about how that evolved and maybe share the story that's, that's in this book, or at least some of the powerful pieces in this book?

Dr. Shannon Kroner  31:10  
Well, you know, the thing is, is that I firmly believe that every parent needs to be doing their own research. And we are in a time where there is a whole new generation of unvaccinated kids that, you know, the the kids who are not have not receive the COVID vaccine. You know, they're being shunned. They're being shunned by friends, family, teachers. And so I had them in mind when I wrote this book, because, you know, I felt that kids right now, like, they need to know that they're not alone. And I know that kids also have questions about well, you know, why is why are all my friends vaccinated? And I'm not and parents may not have the correct answer, they may not know what to say in that situation. And so, so I decided to write a children's book, because there's really no resources out there directed towards children. And a lot of people when I say, you know, you need to do the research. Well, look, I, I've been doing the research for a really long time. And I dive very deep into the research, but this book was made to kind of be a springboard into the deeper research, this is just, it's the start, and it's at the simplest level of why people should be questioning vaccines. And, and how, like, when I had when I wrote the book, what I had in mind is kind of parent and child reading together, so that a parent can answer their children's questions. And, and so the story, it's a beautifully illustrated book, Sharon, and then yes, you got to read it, because and I thank you so much. I have a quote from you on the back of the book, which I'm really excited to have included. And we also I have a quote, also from Dell, big tree and a quote from Robert Kennedy Jr. On the back, and who all three of you guys have really been very supportive. So I appreciate that. And so the book is really it's about it's from a young boys perspective, who has an older sibling who was vaccine injured. And the young boy is not vaccinated because his family has already gone through a vaccine injury and, and it's been detrimental to his family of, you know, all the different things that go on with his older sibling. And so he shares from his perspective, what life is like, especially in today's world, where there are so many pressures to get vaccinated, what life is like for him as an unvaccinated boy, and how he should be accepted as anyone else should be. And that his parents choice to not vaccinate him is okay. And that. And these are the reasons why. And these are the reasons why his parents chose not to vaccinate him and the book talks about how there's no liability for vaccines, and how the current vaccine schedule for children is extremely overwhelming, and how, how he's expected to get almost 100 vaccines by the time he turns 18. And the book also it touches on the one size fits all vaccine schedule about how like, every child is different. Every person has their own genetic makeup and yet the vaccine program is, is a one size fits all program where differences in genetics and differences in family history are not considered. And so really that's an and it talks about, you know, how does society treat him as an unvaccinated child. So for instance, he's not allowed to go to school. And so that's pretty much the basis of what the book is about. It's a, it's really simple, it's really easy to understand. And I think one of my favorite parts about the book is I have included a glossary of all the vaccine related terms that anyone really needs to know and understand in the most basic way. So I've included, you know, terms such as encephalitis, but at at a really easy way to understand what encephalitis is or why monkey cells are used in vaccines and what the purpose of using them is for. So that, you know, people can understand that they're actually vaccines actually are made with monkey cells. And you know, why there are antibodies and why antibiotics are used to make the vaccines, or what autism is in, you know, really simple terms. So it's got a really great glossary. And then I've also included a resource like a recommended resource page. And on that page, it has all of my you know, favorite books, and movies and websites, as well as it actually starts with my some of my favorite my personal favorite resources of where I do my research. And it starts with the CDC pink book, because I think that so many parents don't know where to go to Research vaccines. And I say, just start, start at the top with the CDC pink book, which actually goes through every single vaccine. And then it also has, and what's in it, and it also has the vaccine schedule, like get to know what is expected of you and your children. And, and I also have a resource from Johns Hopkins about regarding the excipients, and all the different ingredients that are in vaccines. And, and, and then all of our favorite I'm sure my favorite books are some of your favorite books and things like that. And same with movies, you know, it recommends things like Vax and Vax, too, but it's a really great resource page for parents who are really kind of just starting out on this journey. I've gotten a lot of feedback from people saying they want to gift this, this book to new parents or you know, in for baby showers and things like that. For parents, for people who haven't had children yet, or they're just starting out and they want to get to know more about vaccines. This is that book because sure is it's so simple.

Dr. Paul  38:12  
It's easy to read. It's packed with information, folks and that resource page. I think that's the biggest frustration parents have. When people say well just do your research. Well, if you Google vaccine stuff, all you get is a bunch of curated CDC, pharma industry, curate, you know, the real, the real meat of research is so buried if not totally excluded from a Google search. That's true.

Dr. Shannon Kroner  38:37  
Yeah. So I made it really simple. And not only that, but I included a QR code, so that so people don't have to even type up all the different websites. All they have to do is scan the QR code, and it brings them to a page on my own website, which is my website is Dr. Shannon kroehner.com. But it brings them to a resource page where all they have to do is click the links and it will take them to where they need to go.

Dr. Paul  39:03  
Yeah, it's a it's a beautiful resource. Thank you so much for providing that. Now. Your book is almost out right. It's available for preorder, if I'm not mistaken, it's available

Dr. Shannon Kroner  39:13  
for preorder, and it starts to ship July 18. So and I will say that, if it's an it's available on Amazon, it's available on Barnes and Noble people can go to directly to the Skyhorse website. Skyhorse is the publisher of the book, and the imprint is I can which is informed consent Action Network, that's still big trees organization. They can buy it through the ICANN website as well. I will say that on Amazon, I think as of today, I've actually gotten the problem taken care of but there were people making pirated books, and wow already All right, it happened actually, within the first few days of my announcement that the book was available for pre sale. Somebody, someone took a screenshot or like a photo copy of the cover of the page, because that's really the only thing that's on Amazon. So they took a cover photocopy of the cover the page with my name, and my illustrators name. And they copied it, and then created their own book with just blank pages in it and sold it as if it was mine. And so I had friends who they were, they wanted to see what actually got delivered. So they ordered it to see and it's literally it's just a book with, it's just like a journal, blank pages inside with my cover. And I've had to fight Amazon several times, I've had to fill out a copyright infringement form, and send it to Amazon. And then it takes them about a day or two to get the book removed. And then as soon as the book is removed, another one pops up of these fake books. So I had to

Dr. Paul  41:11  
direct direct people to Skyhorse to get this direct from the publisher.

Dr. Shannon Kroner  41:15  
Yeah, so Skyhorse has all the correct links on their website, and I have the correct links on my website as well. So that there is no confusion. But um, but what's happening is, so if you buy it from Amazon know that because the fake one says that it will be delivered in a couple of days, which it was because it's just a fake book. And whereas mine is just, it's a pre sale, you won't get it until you could order it now, but you won't get it until about July 19.

Dr. Paul  41:46  
Yeah, and I can verify that, folks, I've pre ordered my copy, even though you sent me a digital copy, and I've read it word for word. It's a beautiful book, well worth the investment. And you will once you read this, anybody you know who's thinking of having kids who's pregnant, who's just had a kid, or even if they're down the road of doing vaccines, you can, you can learn and do different starting at any time. So it's not like, oh, my gosh, it's too late. It's never too late to get informed, and really do what your kids need for you to do. Thank you, Shannon, for making this masterpiece, a reality. It's been sorely needed.

Dr. Shannon Kroner  42:30  
Actually, I have a really exciting announcement about my book. I am actually making another copy in Spanish. So we are working on that right now. The Spanish version should come out probably just a few weeks, or about a month after the English version. Because, you know, I felt that, you know, there's there's no, there's literally no resources in Spanish. And so this was a really simple book to recreate in Spanish. So we are working on that now. It's, it will be available very soon after the English version. So I'm really excited about that as well.

Dr. Paul  43:14  
That is excellent news. And you're so right, it is so difficult to get a book translated into other languages. As an author, I know that to be true. Well, it

Dr. Shannon Kroner  43:23  
turns out that my my illustrator is from Costa Rica. And so so I had asked him, Can you translate the book and so he gladly did.

Dr. Paul  43:34  
Wonderful. Well, of course, he understands exactly the message you're trying to get across. So that is awesome. Just in closing, I'm gonna have you do two things. One is tie it all together for somebody who's listening who's maybe still on the fence about vaccinating? What's your message to them? And then remind people how they can get your book.

Dr. Shannon Kroner  43:57  
Yeah, I mean, my message to all parents who are maybe considering vaccines or for their children, or their questioning vaccines. I I'm a firm believer in doing your own research and coming up with your own conclusions. I don't think that anybody should be forced by their pediatricians or by their doctors, or made to feel bad for not getting vaccinated. But I really do think that the decision to vaccinate or to not vaccinate must come from within it has to be someone someone's personal decision, and they should not be coerced. Or forced by anyone or especially even like family members. I think that it needs to be a well researched decision. And so that would be my message really, to anyone that and why it's so important to protect vaccine choice because right now, as we just recently saw with the pandemic is that our government It is really trying to force vaccines on people and make life more difficult for those who choose not to vaccinate. And so, you know, that's another message in the book is about choice and, and the importance of choice. So, so that would be my message is do your own research and then come up with with your decisions. And this book is will provide all you need in order to get you started on that journey into researching vaccines. And then, as for where anybody can find me, my website is Dr. Shannon croner.com. So DRSH, a nn, o n k, r o n e r.com. And you can email me there, you can click on the links to find the book. You can also I have a link on that website that will link you to my religious exemption website. So So yeah, so that's also, thank you so much for having me on today.

Dr. Paul  46:04  
Thank you, Shannon, Dr. kronor, you are an angel to have brought this to the world at this time. It is so needed folks get this book, get on the preorder. And I think if if you like I said, if you know anybody that's having a baby bout to have a baby thinking about having a baby or already has kids, and they're not grown and out of the home yet. They need this book. It's a nice read. You could sit down with a preschooler a school aged kid or even your teenager and just go through it.

Dr. Shannon Kroner  46:33  
And it's only I think it's only like 32 pages. So it's really easy to get through and, you know,

Dr. Paul  46:39  
lots of pictures, easy read and you will be so informed you will never regret it. So thanks once again.

Dr. Shannon Kroner  46:46  
Thank you so much.

Dr. Paul  46:52  
I look forward to running together with the wind at our backs, revealing the science that gives clarity in our world. It's full of propaganda and misinformation. Visit our website, doctors and science.com Sign up. Donate if you can. Your support makes a difference. And let's make this the weekly show the world has been waiting for. Thanks for watching. I'm Dr. Paul.

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