Dr. Paul 0:00
On today's show, I interviewed Anthony summer off. Let me tell you, you are going to enjoy his accent I sure did. He is a clinical psychologist, but he's also an investigative journalist who's focused in on Pharma. We have an incredible discussion about all the things that we are deceived about when it comes to our understanding of pharma and its role in our world. But don't miss the end. We do a deep dive into you know, What should parents do? What can we do for our children and his clinical Insight was absolutely incredible. Enjoy the show.
Dr. Paul, coming to you from the heart. I'm standing outside the emergency room here in Milwaukee, Oregon. We just entered with my mom, who told me just a few hours ago, Paul, I don't know, this might be the end. She might be dying. Right now my mom is the most important thing to me. And, you know, I think this is true for all of us. Whatever hardships we're going through, we put our family first and we do whatever it takes to be there for them and to love them. Thank you
Welcome Anthony Samer off you are a real intriguing guy to me because I I read your ebook, seven big pharma Myths Debunked. And then I learned a little more about your huge project extends extensive critique of the pharmaceutical industry called Big Pharma none dare call it quackery. But to introduce you to our viewers, you're a psychotherapist, and economics journalist. You're the author of a book universal basic income for and against. You're a regular columnist at drain science.com. And then of course, you've got this big project you're working on. Fill in the gaps there. I don't know you well. So I'd love to learn more about you your background and what got you on this path.
Antony Sammeroff 2:04
Thank you so much, Dr. Paul, you're such a hero to me. You know, a few years ago when I heard about your study, it was like very fortuitous. And it's something that I've often referred people to, and especially in light of the fact that, you know, the CDC had been asked to do a study of this kind since the 80s. And they refuse to do it. So you're a real inspiration. You're also I've also found you and your collaborator, James lens Wheeler, really helpful. Because when I want to talk to people, I don't like making claims I can't substantiate. So let's see where you could look at this. Or you could look at that. And I think anyone who wants to download my free ebook, seven big pharma maths, which you can get from seven, pharma maths.com. Sometimes Americans don't understand me when I say the word myth. So that said, myth,
Dr. Paul 3:04
Lim y t h s, and the seven is the number seven, not the word.com. Yeah. It's a good read. And I highly recommend it.
Antony Sammeroff 3:17
Yeah, so I mean, I guess there's so much to talk about, but, and the less said about me, the better I was already writing about economics of health care. And with the pandemic of BS falling down upon our heads, I was trying, I can't I abandoned a bunch of my projects, because it was like, Am I just rearranging the deck on the Titanic, the deck chairs on the Titanic here? You know, I was I was asking myself, what's the most useful thing I could do with my skills. And given that Adren a lot about the economics of health care. And I was already on to the idea that you can cheat. You can reverse diseases by changing your lifestyle. Because I've done that myself. And also practicing as a counselor, psychologist, or psychotherapist, I've had a little bit of an and an inside view on what the official channels are doing when it comes to mental health. And so I thought, there's lots of and, you know, I studied philosophy as part of my degree. So critical thinking reasoning. I've always been an economics, you know, I've learned a lot of economics. The I felt like I could put all of I could Marshal my forces and the interests of instead of just taking this from one angle, like the terrain, or the the regulatory system, or the economics of health care, or the fact that they tell us that we're living longer because of pharmaceutical science. When I Actually, we're living longer because, you know, we've got running water and refrigeration and sewers and things like that, which is one of the myths I addressed in the book. And I wanted to give people a panoramic view. So that's what I'm building towards. And part of building towards it was putting out this free ebook at seven, Farmer mess.com. And I continue to write on sub stack, but you can, but if you get the, if you get the free ebook, at home, I'll automatically put you on my sub stack. And of course, if you if you don't want to follow it, you can unsubscribe very easily. But you get that that would keep you abreast of what I'm doing. So that's, that's the overview of how I came into this, I came to be focusing on that. And I would just say, every day I wake up, like knowing exactly what I want to do with my life, when I started writing this book, everything just clicked, you know, I see my clients, and I do some writing. And I've got good friends and relationships and things like that. So that takes up all my time.
Dr. Paul 6:07
Yeah, well, I think you hit on something really important here, Anthony. There is nothing more important today in our world than to really understand what's going on. And the fact that the pharmaceutical industry has now become so powerful. And really, I think the myths that that I'm going to have you kind of go through them. We were believing that they were, you know, righteously doing this great work for us. When I think you know, I've been living it as a pediatrician, I'm now retired, but I wasn't seeing are my patients doing better? Right. I've been doing a ATTREX for 35 years, and they're just getting worse and worse. So, you know, one of your first chapters, I think is, you know, is pharmaceutical medicine, making us healthier. What have you found, as you research that
Antony Sammeroff 7:08
was interesting when people talk about this, because I myself, I remember having a chat around the dinner table at some point. And my sister said, oh, yeah, but you know, people are living longer. And this is years ago. And I was like, huh, but then what we find is when we actually look, first of all, there's a big blurring of the lines happening here. Because I don't want to if you have a car or a contusion or you need a skin graft, or riq, or the need to take an Oregon for whatever reason, if you've got a tumor that's impacting on your ability to move waist out through your call on, they can cut it out. So you can put Ray when it comes to emergency medicine surgery. And they can also give you hormone replacements if you you know, if you had to have an organ removed. And so when it comes to emergency medicine, the doctors or the mainstream doctors are miracle workers. But this is where all the lines get blurred. Because pharmaceutical medicine isn't actually surgery, right? Sometimes think if I could give this the book a second title, a second subtitle it would be like surgery as an pharmaceutical medicine. If we just decoupled these two. And instead of having a healthcare industry or a medical industry, people would call them two different names like the pharmaceutical industry and the surgery industry. And then people wouldn't get so confused. Do you know what I mean? Because they really use the success of Emergency Medicine to make it look like the health care industry is getting better results as it has, if you look at all the major achievements, they've been in the area of trauma, crisis care, and that is where they excel. There is no doubt about that. But here's the thing. Diabetes is skyrocketing. Alzheimer's disease has never been so prevalent. When you look at dementia, which is by the way costs I can't remember the figures as I said don't like to say make claims that can't substantiate by believe it several times. What were What Am Other leading causes of death or are no costing society and guess what? As a side effect of taking too many pharmaceuticals, right? So when it comes to the kinds of conditions that people tend to get arthritis, these are just accepted as normal, right? Ain't no more people are studying suffering from stress, anxiety and depression, or have acid reflux, ulcers, stomach problems, and more people are on psychic psychiatric drugs. And I have to tell you, as someone who's had people come to me, as a counselor, who's sometimes been mistreated by other mental health professionals, the worst treatment they get the I've heard reports that as from psychiatrist, who are not trained counselors, by the way, so you know, so it's like, when we actually we're living longer, maybe that's an dope, because apparently life expectancies gone been going down since 2013, or 2014. But we're living sicker. And if you were to design a healthcare system, that would would shovel the maximum amount of money from taxpayers, and workers wages, via insurance companies, and to the healthcare industry, I don't think you could come up with one better than this, keep people sick for as long as possible without killing them, and treat them the whole time. That's what the system is incentivized to produce. And as an economist, we're always trained to believe that things tend to go where the incentives point. So economists are always thinking about incentives. Well, the system seems to be turning out the results that you would expect it to based on its incentives, we're getting sicker, and we're spending more and more money in health care. And I always kind of clever when politicians say we're treating more patients than ever before. They like to do that here where we have socialized medicine. That's silly. If your healthcare system was successful, you'd be able to get on TV and saying, we're, we're treating less patients than ever before, because everyone's getting healthier.
Dr. Paul 12:01
So you bring up a really good point there. And you're in the UK. Correct.
Antony Sammeroff 12:06
And I'm I am at the moment, I can spend quite a lot of time in countries like Mexico, but I'm visiting home at the moment,
Dr. Paul 12:16
right. And when you talk about the health care system, there it is socialized medicine, in the sense that you would think as you just pointed out, that the incentive would be to reduce costs by having people become healthier. And, and yet, that doesn't seem to happen, doesn't
Antony Sammeroff 12:38
know it doesn't happen here. And it doesn't happen in America. It doesn't happen in Canada. Interestingly, Singapore spend a quarter per head of what the USA spends on health care, and they deliver better outcomes. And all of Singapore's health care system was designed by American economists trying to fix America system. But your government then adopt those policies, Singapore's government adopts them. So one of the problems is, we think we have different systems, we have a socialized system, and you have our private system, even though the government pays for half of it, the US government spends as much money per head on health care, as the UK does. But you don't, we don't have different systems, both are systems of sickness, the only thing that is remunerated in each of these systems is the treatment of ill health. So that's fine. That's basically what you're gonna get, we both have, the method of paying is slightly different. And therefore, some of the some of the features of them are slightly different, for example, and America, you have insurance. So this incentivizes to over test, you have a lot of over testing, and the UK, the government doesn't want to pay for stuff. So sometimes we under test, you know, so there's certain features, but one thing that seems to be similar as everyone's getting sicker, and it just costs more and more money, so that so even though it's a different ship, the sales are pointing in the same direction.
Dr. Paul 14:22
Yeah, good point in my world with children, and as you know, I wrote the vaccine friendly plan and then publish the vaccine Vax data from my practice that was so you know, basically shocking the unvaccinated kids just don't get sick, they don't get chronic disease, they don't get infections as much. So if you wanted to take your health back into your own hands and focus on wellness, my data would suggest do less, don't vaccinate, eat healthy, you know, and the outcomes would be devastating to pharmaceutical product. prophets.
Antony Sammeroff 15:01
Correct. And I've got a question for you, Dr. Paul, when you did this study, has anyone actually critiqued the study insurance problems with methodology? Because I see that if I Google, your name will come up on one website or another that says, occur, along with this ridiculous study conducted by these two clones that, but they never actually see what's wrong with the study. So while I'm interested, they just they just dismiss out of hand. So what I'm interested in knowing is Has anyone ever written articles saying that there's anything wrong or criticizing your methodology?
Dr. Paul 15:41
No, it's just name calling. There was one complaint that was filed with the journal that published it, which said, Well, everyone knows that parents who don't vaccinate also don't seek health care. So of course, we would get the results that we got interesting. We controlled for that in our study interest. The journal retracted our study anyway, just based on one complaint, they didn't follow proper procedure and allow us to have a rebuttal to that ridiculous complaint. Happy to report we republished not me because I was at the time forbidden to do research of all things. But yeah, Jack Lyons Wyler and Russell Blaylock, pediatric neurologist, Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah, they published they reworked the data proved that actually, my unvaccinated parents were seeking well child visits at a higher frequency than the more vaccinated parents. So the exact opposite of what we were being accused of was true. And they did one other thing that was very important for listeners to understand. They take they took a look at what happens to the children whose parents at any time stopped vaccinating. Compare those kids to the parents who continue to vaccinate. And we found which was a little surprising to me, that if you stopped vaccinating, you're way better off, like, half the problems if you stopped vaccinating anytime compared to those who continue. So that news there is you know, even though you may have been following a program that you thought was wise, follow the CDC schedule, or even the vaccine friendly plan, which is not friendly enough, as my data shows, you can stop the harm at anytime. You don't have to keep following a schedule, that's harming your child.
Antony Sammeroff 17:33
Thank you, as and Russell Blaylock has been a big guy in evidence based medicine and whatnot for quite a long time.
Dr. Paul 17:42
Yes, he's really, he's written numerous articles about the connection between vaccines and autism or aluminum. He's, he's somehow he's managed to stay out of trouble. I very quickly got myself in hot water when I basically took a shot at the CDC vaccine schedule.
Antony Sammeroff 18:04
Right. Right. And I mean, first, they ignore you. But if you give them something that they can, they'd rather ignore you. Okay. Right. But if they can ignore you, and they have to confront you, then, you know, it sounds like it's a lot of listening quote, I can't wait to see my Wikipedia page. If I'm ever big enough to have one. We get to read about things that I never even knew I'd done.
Dr. Paul 18:29
Yes. So while we were chatting about vaccines, I'd like to ask you a question about what your research has shown with regards to the general belief that pharmaceutical medicine is responsible for the disappearance of diseases like polio, whooping cough, measles, because of course, we had vaccines for these things. And what did you find as you research that?
Antony Sammeroff 18:53
Well, it's interesting, because and one thing I should point out is I love going to mainstream sources. And one things it because it could be that if you go to alternative sources, you'll find out that the truth is even worse, right? But I say even if you just listen to what the EMA and the CDC have to say for themselves, then they they come down on our site, it was actually the American Medical Association that told us that most of these diseases declined due to improvements in living standard. No, no, it is true that we did have vaccinations for things like air polio and whooping cough. But an interesting thing as it as literally we as in America and the United States and things like that, because these diseases also declined and nations that were not rich enough to afford those vaccines. And the thing is, what I was just looking for the relevant quote there, what they basically said was that all all all and coming lickable diseases declined over this period. And that that includes things that that were there was no mainstream treatments for as well. A lot lots of conditions that people used to get back then they don't anymore scurvy and rickets and cholera. Well, scurvy and rickets mostly because of malnutrition, cholera, because we have access to better water. So, if it was true
Dr. Paul 20:24
sources, yeah, yeah.
Antony Sammeroff 20:26
These these diseases, many of these diseases declined significantly or almost entirely before the vaccines were brought out. And that would suggest that it was either because of herd immunity, or because of, because because of improvements in living standards.
Dr. Paul 20:52
Yeah. That's a really important point. I thank you for highlighting the fact this has been true. I mean, the story I was taught in medical school of smallpox eradication, you know, giving credit to the vaccine. Well, very little of the world's saw that vaccine
Antony Sammeroff 21:11
for Yeah, reinforcing that.
Dr. Paul 21:13
Yep. So that's true for most of them. And if you've got any
Antony Sammeroff 21:17
other sources that I didn't mention on that, please feel free to send them my way to review because Moore's I already added a couple more on living standards, I'm always trying to be very robust on these core claims, because people who read first, my, they're already on our side, but once they go up against the farming like firing line, you're as good to have a couple of official sources backing up what you have to say. So you can go by, you know, blah, blah, so that people can raise their eyebrows with Bert and Google, I didn't know that. And that does sometimes happen.
Dr. Paul 21:56
You know, you made such a good point about the US system for emergency for surgeries, you know, if you're in a car accident, it's one of the greatest systems. However, chronic disease, and you you mentioned and alluded to that has is just like skyrocketing. I mean, we just had the report come out this past month, CDC reporting autism is now one in 36. I mean, this is a condition, you know, when I was growing up, 60 years ago, there was not, I did not ever see a single kid with anything like autism. I mean, it just was not around. And now it's, you know, one in 36. In some places worse than that, and I know in the UK, it's the same story. So is it true pharmaceutical medicine is effective, and it's helping us live better lives?
Antony Sammeroff 22:49
Well, let me just take out a quote from you for you. This isn't in the free ebook, because I didn't know at the time when I wrote the free ebook. What does the British Medical Journal have to say, on the point of whether pharmaceuticals are effective, but the British Medical Journal told us in 2013, unfortunately, and the balance between benefits and risks is an uncomfortable truth that most drugs do not work in most patients. Okay, so don't take it from me. And what we're seeing is basically a cascade of chronic illness. Because if you don't actually 10 to the body's needs, which may be the fact that it's malnutrition, malnourished, you can be fat and malnourished, at the same time. I mean, you can eat lots of calories, but unless your body's going, getting what it needs to build healthy tissues, it's not got the capacity to do that. Or you've been poisoned by something in your foot, the air, the water, and toxic relationships, or something that someone injected into you at some point. So unless you're taking what you need to, to build healthy tissues, and maybe it will take a while because your organs might be damaged in their ability to assimilate that stuff. If you're dehydrated, and you've got some, you know, you're getting headaches because you're dehydrated, taking an aspirin is not going to hydrate you. So until we actually, here's the thing, one of my teachers said there's no such thing as a pharmaceutical drug deficiency. You know, there is no you know, there's no anti press, there's no Prozac deficiency that's causing depression, right. So, as so how can pharmaceuticals be effective or anything other than repressing symptoms, when they don't actually have anything in it, that the body needs to build itself in You and they'll build healthier cells and tissues than before the the, the body saying, where's your arm built from amino acid drugs, where's your amino acids? Where's your vitamins? Where's your minerals? Where's your water drug I made of the body is not meant to have anything in it apart from what the body is made of. So the drugs going, I can't help you. Well, then why are you here? Well, I guess it's because the drug companies told me to be. So I think that's why we're going to find that most pharmaceutical drugs, there may be a therapeutic benefit and the short term for acute treatment, while you treat the underlying cause of the disease. And the meantime, as I said, you know, there's no such thing as a drug drug deficiency.
Dr. Paul 25:51
Yeah, ADHD, it's not a Ritalin deficiency are all deficiency, right? You name it, any chronic condition is not a deficiency of the drugs we use as MDs, you know, prescribing this or that we're treating symptoms. Had a perfectly perfect example of this. I developed a chronic rash this past year. And it was a little puzzling to me. I mean, I'm pretty good at diagnosing rashes. And this one was unusual. So that all right, I better finally go see a dermatologist and just see what they have to say. Just one look at it. Oh, yeah, you got eczema. And here's your steroid cream, no discussion about what might be causing what's going on? How I might, in fact, he actually told me, Well, this is just part of getting old, your skin gets dry. In fact, it's going to get worse. There's nothing you can do about it. But just keep taking these steroid creams. Well, what I have is not a steroid cream deficiency, as pointed out, in fact, I think you have a story to share of your own health that you figured out. Oh, thanks for mentioning that sort of guy on this journey of understanding how to deal with root cause.
Antony Sammeroff 27:02
Well, eczema was a big one, because I suffered from that a lot when I was growing up and back then. I mean, the doctors didn't I think, I don't know, you'd have to tell me you're more plugged into the medical world than I am. I do speak to doctors, many of them who come from our point of view, and some that don't actually, and to get to get information. But I think it's widely acknowledged that some foods like dairy and gluten tend to be implicated and maybe fried foods. Are they seeing that in mainstream medicine? No, would a doctor tell someone stop to check if they were allergic to gluten or dairy?
Dr. Paul 27:43
Only if you have full blown celiac, as far as gluten goes, and no, there's complete denial of this whole issue of delayed allergies or sometimes I like prefer to call it food sensitivities, so that people don't get confused that I'm accusing or suggesting they have an allergy. We have the ability to test immunoglobulin G IgG. And this is that memory arm of our immune system that you know, you get elevated antibodies when your body sees something that is it thinks should not be there. Well, we should not have massively elevated antibodies against gluten and dairy and right foods. And yet many of us do. Yes and, and go on you when you test for that and you eliminate those foods. Surprise, surprise, almost every single time the eczema goes away.
Antony Sammeroff 28:37
So I had eczema growing up, I got so bad I got em fatigue or I got infected. It's it was never all over my body, but up and down my whole legs in the in the end. And, you know, as I said, I never knew anything about this stuff. I have actually reversed eczema through a combination of diet, juice cleanses, fasting, different detox protocols that kind of put me on to it. I mean, when I went to natural path and the south of England, he taught he was actually had a PhD in medical sciences, I had a bunch of symptoms you mucus forming, I had blotching on my feet on my chest. And he said that will be your digestion. So he gave me some things to support with that. And that really sent a light bulb off in my heads. Oh, doctors don't really know what they're talking about. I think that was one of my formative experiences. Another one was, you know, I've been told or I can give you something for that. But the blushing on my feet, but less likely, the likely thing is it'll take a few months to work and if you come off it or just come back so there's no not really much point treating that. I managed to reverse that. That was a little bit that took a little bit longer. Longer. Early on, I remember a doctor once asked to prescribe something, and I said, Well, I'll look like do a little bit of research online, and, and then get back to you anyway. Okay, then doctor. And that was like, Really, I assumed so very naively, I was quite young at the time, that he would be glad that was taking an interest in my own health. But I thought maybe that was rare. And it'd be like, Oh, that's great. You know, apparently, that's not how doctors are educated. So these kinds of things kind of put me onto the path because I have actually had success and reversing conditions that the doctors say you can, I've spoken to a couple of people who have reversed irreversible Crohn's disease. I've spoken to people who have reversed or reversible cancer and and clinicians who treat them sometimes in Mexico, because you can't do it legally in the USA. So there's more cause for optimism than most people think.
Dr. Paul 31:05
Yeah. No, thank you for sharing your personal story. Anthony. I wish more of our viewers and listeners and people out there would just realize that the pharmaceutical industry is not your friend. Unfortunately, most traditionally trained MDS are are following a paradigm that is just illness causing and symptom treating, and doesn't ever really look at the underlying issues. And that's where you just as Anthony did for himself, you can start becoming your own best doctor, so to speak, right? As you can figure out what's going on the informations there. It's so funny us, as doctors, we I say us because I'm I'm an MD trained person. And we would say anybody that was looking on lives that oh, well, you don't want to get your information from Google, or online. You know, there's just filled with misinformation. And yet, where would we go? Honestly, when we had to research something, that's the same place we would start? I mean, you might go to Google Scholar, and we might go to PubMed. But anybody can go there also. Right. So all the information anymore is pretty much digitalized. And that's where things are up to date. I read books, because they're a little harder to censor. online information gets a bit censored. What do you think? Is pharmaceutical medicine safe? Because they sure act like it is like, this is science? This is safe? That's not my experience. But what have you found? I know, you've been doing research and writing? Oh,
Antony Sammeroff 32:46
right. Yeah, that's right. Well, I mean, you'd have I don't know, you'd have to ask why 128,000 people a year die from taking the correct dose of a pill that they were properly described, prescribed? Or why another 128,000 a year die, because they were given they were wrongly prescribed something that was contraindicated, or because of a dosage error, or so on. Why is it the 840,000 patients are hospitalized a year in the USA, for giving for being given drugs that cause serious adverse reactions? It's interesting because it speaks to the incentive structure of the system again, because they're not actually that hard to prevent. But the incentive structure of the system is such that if you get infected, you're going to stay in there longer. So everyone's everyone's profiteering from you being ill. So yeah, I mean, what I outlined in the eBook, and I hope everyone enjoys as the there's, there's, there's people think that the kind of thing, like Vioxx is the kind of thing that happens from time to time. But then, but the whole system is structured in such a way as to prevent these kinds of things from being as as to so as to produce these results. Right. So it's not that anyone in the system, I'm sure, there probably are some people in the system that is bad, right, that are bad, but the vast majority of people are doing their job on you know, they're in their little tunnel doing what they're supposed to do to fulfill their responsibilities. But the ship is sailing in a certain direction based on the incentive structures of the system and the regulator, you know, the incentives faced by the regulators faced by the scientists, her based on everyone who has to make a profit base Ston the pharma reps whose job it is to recommend to doctors to prescribe their drug rather than someone else's, by the fact that it's so expensive to bring a drug to market, that the pharmaceutical companies would rather tinker with a existing treatments and change them slightly so that I can repay patent them, etc, etc, etc. So when you see that there's been these drug scandals like OxyContin, and sometimes I report on pharma companies being taken to court and getting sued for something like scientific fraud, or seeing a drug safer than as are illegally advertising a drug off label, and they get fined. This is what I mean by a bad incentive, what they get fined as a fraction of what they profited from selling the drug that they shouldn't have been selling to whoever they sold it to. So the we're going to continue to see medicine being unsafe until it can, until we fix our institutions, in fact, I just put an article out today called, we M, how can we trust trust the science when the journals are so compromised? So I'm reporting on this and all this will will be collected in the future?
Dr. Paul 36:24
That's a huge topic. You know, as a physician who reads quite a bit, I've gotten to the point anymore, that if it's published in a major journal, I'm suspicious that there's been manipulation of the study design, that there's, you know, statistical gaming of the system. And then the dishonesty that goes into so many pharmaceuticals in particular, because of the way it's set up right there. They're in charge of the design, they're in charge of the study. They're in charge of the data, and they don't have to report the raw data. Right, exactly. So there's so many problems. And if you get findings that you don't like you just don't publish them, right.
Antony Sammeroff 37:07
And there's a huge problem. I think it's called the file file drawer problem. And, which is, yeah, you just don't register studies that are unfavorable. So even if someone runs a meta analysis and says, Well, this is the best treatment with the least side effects. Well, how do you know how do you know how many studies were done but weren't published? Right. And that's reported in great detail, and the book Big Bad pharma by Bell Ben Goldacre? So, yeah, he talks a lot about the omission of studies that and how, what you're getting, as just what you're getting is what's favorable to selling drugs?
Dr. Paul 37:53
Yeah. So how do we help people get back to critical thinking and to common sense? What would you suggest there?
Antony Sammeroff 38:02
Hmm, no, that's a big one. If you're going to open your mouth and speak to someone, make sure that you only stick to topics where you can speak authoritative Lee because you've got some, because you can substantiate what you've got to say. And if there's areas where you're not sure, you can say well, maybe we can come back to that topic another time. And, and you can even say, because, because you can say what I say, which is I don't like to make claims that I can't substantiate. Or you can just say I'd like to have a look into it. Stay where, you know, like, I didn't start writing anything on vaccinations, until I made sure I knew enough because it's such a hot topic. So. And you can also say you can ask someone a question, like, what evidence would be required for you to change your mind? Or yeah, what would satisfy you so that you've now got the criteria on the table for having that kind of conversation? And, you know, it's it's very funny that your, your people name call and say your studies bad, but don't say why and things like that, because there's so much bad evidence and medicine. I mean, I've got a whole chapter in that in that ebook at seven pharma myths.com. But just as an example of like some of the high jinks that happened, this was reported by Robert Whittaker, famously and the book anatomy of an epidemic that with anti psychotic drugs. What they did was they took a bunch of people who are already doing okay, on the drug off the drug. And then they randomized half of them into what was called a placebo group, and then put the other half of them back on the drug and said, well, people really perform better on this drug than with that It's a really, people on the drug poor, performed better than people who were withdrawing from the drug. What an astonishing surprise, that must come up as, and this is their, that book came out ages ago, and these drugs are still being prescribed. So I just I just want people should meet Yeah, I mean, you can use examples like this and I certainly get plenty of them and the ebook and you somehow you need to kind of kick in the door with people and give them something to be curious about. And you also need to retain your own sanity. And remember that you're not, you're not always going to be able to change someone else's mind. So be choisi with your words, I apologize if I've been long winded and not that choice C with my words today. Choose a couple of examples that you think are really going to stick with people because people can't unhear something. And even if they don't get it in that moment, they'll remember it when someone says something else. So and that's part of what I've done with this ebook, because sometimes I'd find the most shocking information on page 115 or 367 of someone else's book. And I go, wait, what? And that's what, that's the kind of stuff I tried to put and straight away like, I just like, kick the door and get people's attention. Let's start with the big topics. And then and, you know, it's quite remarkable when you look at. I mean, I thought I knew a lot about this stuff a year ago, but it's just it's so it goes so deep. So even though I've been working on this stuff for quite a while, it's still endlessly fascinating.
Dr. Paul 41:59
Yeah, I like what you said, ask someone, what would it take for you to consider this information or change your opinion? I'm finding, in many cases, it doesn't matter what I say. There people are, it's it's almost like a belief system or a religion as opposed to a real look at science. And I mean, when you hear like in the vaccine agenda or the vaccine world of research, you'll hear officials saying, well, the science is settled. Science is never settled. It's always an ongoing.
Antony Sammeroff 42:37
Well, I mean, the data if, if the science is settled, and you're so sure why Why don't you encourage the CDC to do a large study of the long term outcome health outcomes of vaccinated and unvaccinated populations, there's 800,000 Completely unvaccinated people in the USA, it wouldn't be hard to take a sample 10,000 Just don't do it. Okay. You and I both agree. We both like science, you say the science is settled? Well then do the frickin study. But so. So here, here, here's the thing. People sometimes have preferences, masquerade masquerading as beliefs. Okay. It's not got anything to do with what the information says. That is what they prefer to believe. Maybe just because they're a member of a group that share that belief with them. They don't want to be alienated from I don't really know why. But there's there's signs, there's signs when that's what you're dealing with, which is that someone will make an argument for something. And if you knock down that argument, they'll change to another argument. And then if you knock down that argument, it'll change to another argument. So the position stays the same. But the argument for that position keeps on changing. And then if you you bring the topic up with them a week later, they go back to your first argument as though you never even knocked it down in the first place. Right? If that happens, don't bother debating them, or at least bring up say, Look, we, we we spoke about this, what are don't let someone go to the next argument. Just say, wait a minute, wait a second. Wait a second, wait a second, before you told me that you believe this? Because argument a no, you're telling me you believe this because of argument B, which has a and you can even say Could it be that you just want to believe that? And whatever the art you need, whatever the whatever, whatever I say, you're just going to keep on changing the argument. Because if that's the case, then maybe we just shouldn't discuss this issue. But if you are, if you're interested in finding out the truth, then I am interested in speaking to you and if they go, Yeah, I'm interested in and what the truth is say, okay, Then, how can we establish? How can we find out what the truth is? How could we? How could we both agree? So these are Yeah, I wonder if we were taught these skills skill, if people would be more open minded, or if people just get more and more clever, defending their possessions. The more the more you teach them, the more sneaky they become.
Dr. Paul 45:26
Well, you bring up a good point in school, I even right through medical school, we basically, and I know it's worse today I'm hearing, we're basically taught facts. And you're, you're tested on your ability to regurgitate facts. And I would struggle so much because I think deeper than just the yes, no, or the factor, then I'm thinking all right. Do they know the information? I know? In which case, the answer is this? But I don't that's not mainstream. So they probably want this answer. Most, you know, when you and this is a plea to parents, actually, as you raise your kids, if you've got an argumentative kid who's trying to figure things out, you should be supporting that, because they're learning how to think critically as opposed to do as I say, I mean, if we have authoritarian parenting and authoritarian to schooling, and then you turn out these adults, and you suddenly think they're gonna be thinking critically, it's probably too late.
Antony Sammeroff 46:27
I think you make a good point there. And you remind me of another reason why I think maybe people are find it are so resistant to changing their minds. If you go through that skill, right? Yes, or No answer is right or wrong answers. Either you got the fact or you didn't get the fact, what happens is when you get things wrong, you get across, you get a D, you get an F, and maybe that creates a mentality where people are afraid to get it wrong, right. So once they have a position, they have to commit to it because they can't be wrong. People are afraid of being wrong. People get criticized a lot as kids, they get scolded, they get spanked the gear. And all of these things, create our fear of error. So I think, you know, that's me putting my psychotherapist hat on, you know, yeah, your point on your query for raising children better, I think is definitely a critical piece of the puzzle.
Dr. Paul 47:31
Yeah, no good point. In fact, dig into your psychotherapist background and think about what advice you would give to parents. I mean, obviously, you can extend that to adults we need we need the same sort of critical thinking. But given what just happened in our world with COVID, the last three years, where it was like pharma, misinformation, censorship on steroids,
Antony Sammeroff 48:02
I think as a parent should read a book called How to Talk. So kids lesson and listen, so kids will talk like that. That's such an amazing book. And it was such a foreign formative experience on me growing up when I read it, because it helped me decode all the unkind ways that I was spoken to as a as a child, and invalidate my experience that will give you communication skills. As counselors were taught to summarize what the other person has said, and put it back to them in their own words. And I've learned that's not just a skill for therapists, has become incredibly useful in my friendships, and my romantic relationships. And when it comes to debating people, because when I'm on my best, I'll stop and put what the other person has said back to them before to make sure I've got it right. Before before challenging something they've said, and I've found that it makes my conversations harmonious. These are an excellent skills to develop if you're a parent, they're so important for children. And I saw this myself when, as part of my degree, I did a placement as a classroom assistant, because I'd been reading all of this stuff because I was interested in it, but I didn't have any children of my own. So it was, even though I taught piano, and I dealt with children there, I got to see our work in the school. And it was like, right, this isn't just stuff and books. This is this is this really, really works with kids. Then there's the thing that children need good adult influences in their life. They shouldn't just be hanging around other kids all day in school or so it's really important as parents, you know, get good friends, taking care of yourself as taking care of your kids, right? Because when they go over and speak to your friends, and just have them around the house, make friends with others. Parents so you can watch each other's kids, you deserve a date night to never stop dating, you know that they know things that you don't know or have a different sense of humor from you or interact with children differently. So, and they're not so worried about being good parents to the child, so they can be a little bit more free and less rigid and just be themselves and play with a child. And that is really important and something has been lost with move towards what we call what passes for civilization these days. In some ways, we've uncivilized we've uncivilized when it comes to the importance of the role and community and causing harmony for ourselves with and by extension of the, for the children that we bring into the world because to a large degree, we are our children's environment.
Dr. Paul 50:58
I think our children in this very complex, stressful world we now live in, do need to have an umbilical cord, so to speak figuratively, to their guardians, their protectors, their parents, their nurturers, right? Are we cutting that umbilical cord too soon, and just shoving kids off to daycare and kindergarten and school. I mean, I, I even went, I was very prepared for it. I was a great student, I had a lot going for me, but I went off to boarding school in Africa at age 13. And basically, that was the beginning of my adulthood or my independent living. And in retrospect, I looked back and thought, Wow, that's a pretty drastic cut the umbilical cord, throw a kid out on their own. I mean, in the middle of Africa, I'm 1000, more than 1000 miles away from home, no phone calls, letters that took a week or two to get back and forth. what comments do you have for parents in that regard to how to continue nurturing their kids? And for how long?
Antony Sammeroff 52:03
So interesting? And I'm not sure I'm exactly the expert on this question. But I love the synchronicity that not long ago, I was speaking to a client myself that was regaling me of how they remember every day. They would they were so they were crying, and FETs of tears when they were left at daycare. And an A what sparked it was I was speaking about another incident. And they said they were describing the feelings of sadness about that incident. And I asked a question, which is a good question from accounts for a counselor, which is, does that remind you of anything? And the thing we went back to was this thing that happened, no child has that feeling of abandonment is so deeply rooted in them. They were watching the clock, and if their parents were one or two or three minutes late, every minute lately, where the more anxious they got, that someone who's not ready to be separated from their parents. Yeah, you think, Oh, well, you know, let them cry it out. toughen them up, it's not going to toughen them up, you're making them more vulnerable, you're giving them a wind, that can be as a button that can be pressed at any time in the future. And that will lead to them having some to come to someone like me, to help them get in touch with themselves and overcome the difficulties, the challenges. So. So one thing is that kids spell love, T I M, E. And you really need to make quality time with your children, even even when they're not children. So I would say an important thing is that when you're with your family, especially as parents, not make sure you're not just relating with them on the level you can get stuck into which is doing, you've got to do this, you've got to do that. And structions criticism, even praise Oh, you did this? Well, you did that. Well, all of these things are always putting you in the possession of Aaron rule. You're, you're you're doing you're performing the job of being a parent. And I understand performing the job of being a parent, as something that has to be done from time to time. But a really important thing is you experience just being together, spending time together, playing laughing, asking questions that have nothing but curiosity, taking an interest in things, you know, if they're on tech talk too much. So that's another word that Americans don't understand. When I say it. I'm starting to read remember them all? Tick tock, tick, you know, the app the addictive, right? And ask them what videos are interesting in it. You know, I played video games too much when I was growing up. Thankfully, I don't you I can enjoy them anymore. And that's been the truth ever since I, you know, got into my 20s. And thankfully, because it's such a time sink, it would have been so good if one of my parents or an adult had said, What are you playing there? Show me, why don't you teach me how to play or find something your kids good and get them to teach you how to do it, right. All of these things are ways of relating, which will add so much depth. And when the admiration of the young ones in your life, the if you want your kids, if you want to have influence over your kids, the most influence you have is their high opinion of you. Nevermind what punishments you can give them or what you can force them to do.
Dr. Paul 56:02
Wow. Well, as we get close to wrapping it up, I want to just have you have an opportunity to have the last word but I have to just repeat back to you, as you've taught me to do now. What I heard was so beautiful was love L O V E is spelt time t i m e when it comes to parenting. And my whole focus going forward in my career now that I'm pivoting to coaching, as opposed to being a doctor is putting kids first I want the rest of my life to be focused on that. And with that thought in mind, or whatever else is in your heart. How do we put kids first? What would you like to share as your final most important thoughts?
Antony Sammeroff 56:49
So amazing. You say that because people will say things like, Oh, the children are the future the children in the future. Even when you go to order a pizza, they might give you a card where they say, How did you rate the service here? Is there anything we could have done to make it better? They may email you they say if you answer this email, you've got a chance of winning $2,500. That's how much they want the feedback of their customers. But they don't ask kids what they want out of their school. They don't ask kids what they want out the Sunday service, they don't. So my advice to put kids first was listen to what they have to say about their experience of life. And take it seriously. Allow them to know that what they think and feel really matters to you. And that means when they grew up, they wouldn't have all these hang ups about getting in relationships where they're really loved. Or you know that so many adults have Oh, it feels so weird for someone to really love me. They won't have a problem being ambitious, they won't have a problem accepting money, because they know that their needs are important. And web that they're more likely to be generous and giving an understanding of others needs because your model modeling that idea that, you know, people people match or starting with themselves. Thank you, Anthony.
Dr. Paul 58:28
That was a very beautiful wrap up, folks. Thank you for listening to this all the way through. And Anthony, I can't wait for your big project. So keep that keep after it. I know you're writing a masterpiece. I don't know you're in the hundreds of pages already, I think yeah, definitely. Well, don't give up and persevere
Antony Sammeroff 58:53
definitely well. And I just want to express my appreciation for you again, and this I love doing this show. It was one of my favorite shows so far. And just that you're an I've got great admiration for you and you're a great inspiration to me and a lot of other people. They're not just from your deeds, but I think your very nature. You come across with such benevolence. And I think that's that's also inspiring. It reminds us of how charming benevolence says and how important it is to enter the world with coming from a loving place. And thank you for being a model for that
Dr. Paul 59:41
I look forward to running together with the wind at our backs, revealing the science that gives clarity in our world that's full of propaganda and misinformation. Visit our website, doctors and science.com Sign up. Donate if you can. Your support makes it difference and let's make this the weekly show the world has been waiting for thanks for watching I'm Dr Paul
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Dr. Paul's book, The Vaccine-Friendly Plan, may not align with his latest findings on the Vaxxed-Unvaxxed data. However, it still serves as a valuable tool for those who follow the CDC schedule. The book offers peer-reviewed information encouraging parents and guardians to think critically about vaccine decisions. While Dr. Paul cautions against following the Vaccine-Friendly Plan, it can still be a helpful resource for those seeking a starting point for their vaccine journey.
Dr. Paul's research: https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/17/22/8674/pdf, though wrongfully retracted as shown in this study: Revisiting Excess Diagnoses of Illnesses and Conditions in Children Whose Parents Provided Informed Permission to Vaccinate clearly shows that those children who were not vaccinated were much healthier than those who followed the Vaccine-Friendly Plan.
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