Dr. Paul 0:00
Dr. Paul, welcome to with the wind science revealed. Today I interview Florida's Surgeon General. Dr. Joseph ladapo. He's a former UCLA professor. He's author of the book transcending fear, a blueprint for mindful leadership and public health. Wow, have we needed that we're gonna go over his background, talk about his different approach to public health that was both science based and honored individual choice over mandates. He stresses freedom over fear. This is a real blueprint for how access government control can be avoided. This might guide us if this ever happens again. Enjoy the show.
Dr. Pol from the heart. Today, I'm talking about change. I have really been struggling with this retirement thing. I'm not retired, I'm going to find other things to do. But wow, am I experiencing change? I'm not seeing kids daily, like I did for the past 35 years. I know I'm calling for something bigger, something different, something that's requiring growth. Maybe you've experienced something like that the past three years. I know something's being asked to me. I'm, I'm doing my best to be open to follow God's plan. Trying to listen, haven't mastered that yet. This really is requiring patience, openness, and love. Each day, ask myself what do I need to be doing so I can make the best difference in this world that I'm putting in. One thing I know for certain, though, that isn't changing, is my commitment to this show my passion for this, the ability to be on this journey with you. This has helped me greatly in embracing the changes in my own life, and what's going on in the world around us. So I thank you for that.
Welcome, Dr. ladipo, I consider you one of the most influential and courageous doctors in the world. And I just am so appreciative and grateful for you to come on the show with the wind science revealed.
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 2:15
Thank you, I'm really happy to be joining you really happy to be
Dr. Paul 2:18
awesome. I love to start out I mean, you've got a lot of accolades and things I want to talk to you about. But I really love to start out by getting to know you a little bit and have our audience get to know the man. It always feels like to me when someone is as courageous as you are. Something in your background, perhaps prepared you for this time. Tell us a little bit about your background where you grew up and kind of leading up to your career.
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 2:44
Oh, sure. Yeah. So I was born in Nigeria, and moved to move to this country. And my parents moved us to Louisiana, then Georgia, and then North Carolina, and went to college in North Carolina. And I went to med school and in Boston at Harvard, even though the media, if you only read the articles, you think I was not even a doctor.
Dr. Paul 3:15
Yeah, we have a couple of things in common. I grew up in Africa. I wasn't born there. And I ended up at Dartmouth from medical school. So we were we were neighbors, so to speak, although I was quite a few years ahead of you, I believe. And then your training is amazing. I mean, I think it was at Beth Israel, and then you ended up at UCLA as a clinician, scientist and professor.
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 3:36
Yeah, that's right. That's right. I had great training at Beth Israel. And then I was my first faculty job was actually at NYU. And from there, I went to UCLA. Gotcha.
Dr. Paul 3:51
Yeah. And I think I remember reading that in your training, you had a lot of public health background as well.
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 3:58
Yeah, that's right. That's right. So during medical school, I stopped to do a PhD in health policy at the John F. Kennedy School of Government. And I got great training there in economics, Epidemiology, health policy, public health. So I benefited from from great training, which I used as a clinician scientist and had at the time I left UCLA. I had four NIH grants at that time. So I was, I was tenured, I was doing really well at UCLA. But the pandemic was a was a rift in in my time there and my relationship with my colleagues, many of my colleagues
Dr. Paul 4:45
interesting so I'm, you're gonna get into this but you took a stand very different than a lot of your colleagues. I've been through the same thing. What prepared you for that and how Did you come to understand things to be a little different than the narrative that we were being told?
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 5:06
Well, I was very lucky. And what prepared me was, was really God's grace. Because I, for most of my life, I was pretty very much a fear world old guy, I was a fairly old guy, it was a fear was a major component of every aspect of my life. And, and it primarily stemmed from a traumatic experience I had when I was a little boy and I talked about it in the book transcend fear, and, and the I fell in love with my wife, and, you know, the, the, the wounds and the injuries and the stuff that I've been carrying around and thought was not a big deal. You burst out into the open, and obviously, it was always a big deal because it inhibited my connection to myself, my connection to other people, and lots of other lots of other handicaps, it can well from from that, from that prevented me from being all that I could be. And, and we had a rough time with it really my wife, I mean, I my wife primarily was the was a poor soul who had to deal with me. And I saw therapists and got some help, but none of it was really enough, not even close, and eventually worked with a guy, former Navy SEAL named Christopher Mae her. And he has mastered techniques from Chinese Meridian theory, stuff related to the flow of chi, related to how, how stress and trauma, and anger and grief and and all of those types of emotions, self doubt, literally live in our bodies and obstruct the flow of chi in our bodies. And it I didn't believe any of it. And we really went to see him because my poor wife was at the end of her rope. And, and I worked with him for five days, and you have never looked back. It's it was, it was by far the most, the most important ingredient to my happiness today, my ability to do everything that I've done since during the pandemic. And I actually, oddly enough, I worked with them in December 2019. So the timing was really, really good. And and that's, that's why I've been able to do everything that I've done. That's why it's like literally that simple.
Dr. Paul 7:44
Wow, thank God for your wife, and thank God for having that person in your life. I have a parallel when I lost my license for publishing a study showing the differences between vaccinated Vax kids, I was going through a separation from my wife, I mean, just everything crashing down, right. And I was living way too much in ego. And I had a coach who, who absolutely allowed me to get in touch with myself. Put fear aside, put faith at the center of everything. And boy, you're not trying to do it alone. Right. It's incredible.
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 8:18
Wow, that Yeah, yeah, I think that's I mean, that that's, that's very interesting. And, and I'm glad you had that. And and, you know, I know that everyone's path is different in terms of it turns even people get on that path, because not a lot of people don't care aren't interested, you know, God bless them. That's all good. But, but if you are, if that's something you want, I'm always happy that people are, are moving toward that that goal?
Dr. Paul 8:52
Yes, absolutely. And if I hadn't mentioned at the beginning, you are the author of an incredible book, transcending fear, a blueprint for mindful leadership and public health. And we're gonna get into the public health side of things, for sure. But before we go there, since you touched on this fear thing, it felt like to me if we if we kind of go back to the beginning of the whole COVID thing. It sure was a very, very powerful. I'll call it propaganda because I that's what I've come to believe it is. But I mean, how, how were we as a as a world population to deal with the onslaught of the images and the fear porn, if you will, that was coming at us? How did you handle that? When when COVID was first rolling out? I believe you were at UCLA at the time. Yeah. And what do you think about the use of fear and what's that all about?
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 9:46
I am really so. So for me personally, I had two really good things going for me. I had my wife who just instinctively she just she's a fearless being and I had The benefit of having, having worked with Christopher to help me clear up a lot of my tremendous amounts of my emotional baggage, my, you know, and and how that connected to my spiritual being and my, my mental being and all that stuff. So between those two, like my wife, you know, called BS early on in terms of the spotting the smear campaign, which is not to say I mean the virus, obviously it's it was a very serious name for it seems extremely grave for a lot of people primarily primarily people who were older, in terms of where the risk was, was concentrated, but, but the, the, the production that came along with it, that unforeseen was successful and convincing people that a bunch of unreasonable things were reasonable, such as locking people down and closing their schools and indefinitely and, and forcing people to wear masks in the absence of evidence and the absence of in the absence of, of clinical support and the absence of any respect for their own individual preferences. Like she saw through that immediately. And I fortunately, I wasn't far behind from from her. And, and, you know, that's exactly what happened. And these techniques, these tactics were deployed American population, and unfortunately, they had a lot of success and a lot of traction. And he looked back, I mean, it's just a lot of crazy stuff that happened, firing people, because they wouldn't, you know, firing a nurse because she doesn't want to put something new in her body. I mean, give me a break, when she's low risk, probably already had COVID. Just there were a lot of it's a demonstration of how, how you can really shift people's beliefs and thinking and when you when you when you prep them properly, and when you really prepare that environment properly in terms of a fear. And it's worse than that, too. Because not only are you getting people to believe something that that is on natural, that's wrong. But but you also are having success in getting people to disconnect from their own intuition. And and both of those things happened. And then you know, it's that's sort of the pathway to atrocities, unfortunately, in case the pandemic, there were just a lot of a lot of unethical things that happen. I mean, things that are just blatantly wrong, just completely, totally wrong, they always were wrong. Many people were able to be convinced that they were not
Dr. Paul 12:56
including, it seems most of our peers, most doctors in the US don't seem to get it.
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 13:03
And yeah, well, it's a really good demonstration how sort of analytic intelligence has no connection with, with people's connection with source and, you know, they're spiritual beings. And the spiritual being always knows like that that stuff was wrong. And that's, that's people's connection to God and divinity. And and it's it is just that's a separate related but a separate entity, then then the analytic being.
Dr. Paul 13:38
Yeah, no, you're so it's so right, with both of us having gone through that awakening, if you will, and reconnecting to our intuition and spirit. Wow, our population is in trouble. I think I'd have you comment on a few things. Because to me, as I watched this rollout, I mean, sure, the first month or two were all a little bit fearful, because we just didn't know what we were dealing with if you go back to February, March, April of 2020. But they, and I say they being let's talk about people like Fauci and those who are controlling the narrative and had control in the public health arena, which I want to really touch on with you soon. But they did some tricky things like identifying cases as just positive tests. Right. What were your thoughts then? And now about the testing issue and the PCR testing, and what that might have done to mislead the public?
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 14:39
Well, I think a lot of people know that historically, in public health, you think of cases as being people who have symptoms and not just a positive test. And it's, I think, fairly widely recognized now but back then you're totally hush if you said something like this, but the PCR test alone is not useful for really diagnostic purposes in terms of knowing whether someone, at least on a one time use, whether knowing someone is having an active infection was an early phase of infection is, is clear there infection and, and but it was used that way. And it was used to define define cases. And then of course, now there's more discussion about, well, who died with COVID? And who died from COVID. And all that stuff. Really was just another example of the mania of the time and the breathlessness of the, of the strategy of a public health strategy. Yeah.
Dr. Paul 15:46
And do you have a comment on the cycles of amplification because I hadn't been clued into that until I started reading more about the specific COVID PCR testing and how, you know, there were studies that showed at low levels of cycles 18 Or so it was a very good test would usually be negative, but we were using 35 to 40, or more cycles of amplification here in the States, which made it almost meaningless. Do you agree with that comment? Or what are your thoughts on that?
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 16:16
I agree, I think that that the from, and I'm not my area of research is more on the quantitative fields like health economics and epidemiology and, and, and biostatistics. But from my discussion with colleagues who were were expert in, from my review of papers that have looked at this issue, I mean, that's what happens, right? You get less, you get more sensitivity, or much less specificity by using such a high cycle cycle count. So you know why we did that? I agree. It's just not wasn't the probably wasn't sensible. And it certainly, I mean, how many people only how many people were had no symptoms, but we're totally we're sick. And we're told to isolate for 14 days, or however many Dr. Fauci had decided was the right number at that time, the pandemic. So it is problematic, and it just adds to all the confusion of the pandemic, and also planning how to address the pandemic,
Dr. Paul 17:29
right? And then, what do you think of the fact that they made this determination? Probably Fauci on down, that you only count a person as vaccinated when they have completed the series. And it's been 14 days after the series. And, and the problem I had with that is, as I saw side effects from the shot itself, a lot of the side effects were right away. So when those 14 days that you're declaring somebody is not vaccinated, when they actually are vaccinated, all these symptoms that are side effects of the shot are being labeled COVID disease, or it's happening in an annex person when truly they're vaccinated.
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 18:12
Right, it's interesting because that that particular phenomenon predates the mRNA COVID-19 vaccines in terms of clinical trials of vaccines, waiting to start the clock, until an individual is is is his has entered a period of time where you believe that whatever immune response they were going to mount they mounted it. i It is a tradition, obviously it doing that favors the vaccine arms, because it obviously favors them. Analytically, my sense is that I tend to and there's been some debate about this, in the in the academic community, as you know, I tend to be of the thought that we should treat all medications the same in terms of how we evaluate them in randomized clinical trials. And what that means is that there's an intention to treat. So if you are randomized to that arm, that's the arm you're you're analyzed in, and that the clock starts when you when you are randomized, you know when you received the intervention. So I tend to think that we shouldn't do those studies. That way. It will on average, I would anticipate that it would reduce estimates of effectiveness. But it's also it's also brings those studies on par with other other studies. So other randomized, randomized study. These medications, so I tend to think that would be the appropriate way to do it. One other way you can think about it is, I had a, I had a teacher, Dr. Richard Zack Hausser while I was at the Kennedy School, and He's an economist, and one of the things he likes to say is that to get your thinking straight, go to the extremes. So in this case, it's a two week delay. And people were like, okay, that's fine. That's fine. But let's say it was a 20 week delay, right? Let's say it took that long to see an effect. Would that be okay to wait that long? In your analysis? Most people would probably say no. So if 20 weeks isn't Okay, two weeks on based on the same principle is not okay. So I tend to think you should start the clock when you start when you're randomized in randomized to your treatment arm.
Dr. Paul 20:48
Right, that should be on day one of getting the jab. Yeah, yeah. Very interesting. So So let's talk a bit about your journey from being a professor, clinician scientist, researcher, to becoming Florida's Surgeon General. When did that happen? And what was your decision making? And in doing that?
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 21:10
We were it happened in September 2021. And yeah, like I said, I was I was a tenured faculty member at UCLA, I was actually certain I was going to retire there, even though things had gotten unpleasant, with a lot of my colleagues and my boss, because of, because of my opinions on during the pandemic, and, and having the gumption to voice those opinions. But my research was going well. And, and things were awkward. I did have some team members leave because of Joe, I can't believe he would say this, about the COVID-19 vaccines in that. But overall, things are still going well with the research. And then I got a call I think in in August of 2021, from a governor DeSantis his team. And so I've been Surgeon General since September, I was very grateful that they that they selected me for the position of Surgeon General. And, you know, we're I think we're only just getting started, and we have a lot more work to do.
Dr. Paul 22:17
So thank you, by the way for taking that position and having that courage to do so. Help us understand most of us don't understand what a Surgeon General does, and how that position fits into the public health. sort of arrangement in the state because I know we have. I'm an Oregon and I know we have public health officials who are you know, just sort of by decree this, you, you can't go to school, right? Those quarantines Are you must wear masks. How does your role fit in with the general public health? Structure of leadership?
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 22:54
Yeah, so I'm the head of the Department of Health in Florida, we've got over 13,000 full time, employees essentially. And in 1000s, more of essentially, maybe part time might be the right word to use employees. And we have 67 county health departments in our 67 counties. And we've got an integrated system. And in Tallahassee, we are we're the center of that system. I have seen it said we have so many hard working people in our department who are really dedicated and commitment committed to public health, and that in the health of their fellow Floridians. And so, as the head, I oversee all of our programs, from our programs for maternal health, to our programs for Child Nutrition, to our programs for smoking cessation, and our programs for licensing medical doctors and pharmacists, and inspecting public swimming pools. So we have a really broad, broad portfolio and an excellent, excellent team. And so I oversee our programs and and I also work with our division leaders to to help plan strategically how we're addressing public health and how we are addressing new issues, whether it's monkey pox or, or other issues that arise. And I also have the privilege of working with Governor DeSantis also.
Dr. Paul 24:28
So are you overseeing the medical board as well?
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 24:34
The medical board is independent. Okay. It is. It's within the Department of Health, but it is an independent body.
Dr. Paul 24:42
Gotcha. So, how did you deal with the fact you know, when you were at UCLA, you had one analysis of what was going on with COVID and the jabs, so called vaccines, but a lot of your peers had a different thinking about it. So so that they were, it was getting awkward, right? Certainly, I would guess in Florida, there must be other people in your public health world, who like those other folks at UCLA don't agree with you. How do you deal with that in a leadership sense, and actually for getting things done that are different, because I think I'd love to hear what you've done in Florida. That's different, because it feels different. I've traveled around the country, I've been to Florida twice to speak. And, you know, people seem freer, they're not walking around with masks, there seems to be less fear. How were you able to impact that?
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 25:40
Florida definitely is freer. I mean, it is because and it's and that is, that is that is completely due to Governor DeSantis. And the fact that he very early on, it made it clear that people had a right to breathe, kids had a right to breathe. And that it was you had a right to decide what you put in your body. And, and, and people had a right to work and things like that. So he created that atmosphere. And, and, you know, the voters, I mean, they they really, really showed their support for with his his landslide victory. I mean, unbelievable. How how huge of a victory that was in the election. And it for me in terms of yes, there are definitely people a lot of doctors, most doctors in Florida, probably don't agree with, with my positions. Many do here in the state that I hear from. And even in California, people were often sending me supportive notes. Even it was a very, very, very hostile environment there. In terms of people were vocal. But But I think everyone has to find their way with this. For me, it's I just, I think communication about what I think actually, before the communication, being clear about what I think and why is has been my my approach. And you know, ultimately, the stuff that I share. It's not it's not complicated. It's sort of, you know, here's what the studies show with the masks. Here's what I think about individual rights, okay, you put those together does not make sense to force anyone to do this, right. The studies don't are overall not supportive. And, you know, in the fact that people have a right to control their face, is that's a major factor. So I think that I do think that I've been able to persuade many people, it's not my intention to persuade. I mean, I'm happy to persuade people, I'm happy when people change their positions, to be more in agreement with mine, because I think that's a, that's a better place to be for public health. But I do think that many people have changed their positions based on the clarity of my message and the rationale for that message. But again, all of it starts from being clear internally.
Dr. Paul 28:22
Right? So you've made it pretty clear. And I 100% support your thinking on the mask issue. I mean, the studies aren't showing that they make any difference, and they certainly can be harmful. As a pediatrician, the thought of masking up little kids, and they don't get to see facial expressions. What are we doing to our kids? Right? It's just an insanity. Do you have a handle on the data from your state in Florida? So you were one of the only states I think that early on, allowed for this freedom not to wear masks, opening up schools, perhaps sooner than other states, not forcing people to take the jab? The COVID shot. So what kind of results have you had? Because of course, I remember hearing reports on news. Oh, doom and gloom, you know, DeSantis. And then when you were joining that you guys were going to create a disaster in Florida. Has it been a disaster?
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 29:30
You know, the louder the news, the better things are going here. Yeah, you have the benefit of those strategies not being effective in this why masking it's just as a strategy, public health strategy, and people can fuss Oh, well, they're not worrying 100% of the time, or they're not worrying at 200% of the time, or whatever people were complaining about fine. But what we're talking about here is a public health strategy. The public health strategy It doesn't work in terms of masking. So it doesn't work. So is it going to affect anything? No, it's not going to have any second any appreciable effect. And moreover, you have the benefit of not forcing people into to do stuff they don't want to do, which definitely has a negative effect when you coerce people. So we've had Florida people keep moving here, again, the people vote, they vote in the ballots, and they vote with their feet. I mean, people keep coming to the state, real estate just gets more expensive. And they're voting with their feet now, and you know, you walk around and people are happy. And they really appreciate it. And as I mentioned, I mean, they really rewarded the governor for his his leadership. Particularly with respect to pandemic restrictions, I mean, people don't like being locked down no matter what these guys in New York or Oregon or California say,
Dr. Paul 31:01
yeah. So Alright, folks, did you hear that you don't need a mask, it doesn't work, and let your smile shine. Let's talk briefly about this messaging that we got incessantly that, for example, children should stay home, quarantined, don't go to school, because well, and then of course, they threw the masks in as well. You don't We don't want you to kill grandma. And from a public health standpoint, what do you say to that?
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 31:33
You say that, you say that, like that people always have choice. And people should always have choice related to public health only in the most extreme circumstances like that, that that woman who was her name, I can't remember her name right now. But the woman who, who was a was a asymptomatic carrier of salmonella, I can't
Dr. Paul 31:59
remember her name, typhoid, Mary, typhoid, Mary,
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 32:03
and the and she stopped cooking, and she started cooking again, and people got sick again. So you being hit up, staying with the least restrictive approach is like that's the smart strategy. That's the sustainable strategy. And these these these sort of coercion campaigns, oh, you're gonna kill grandma. Oh, this now, not only is there not evidence for that, but it's, it's bad. Public health is just a bad strategy. It it's fear base it, it plays on guilt. I mean, it's just it's like Bad, bad, bad, bad. So it's just not something it's unethical. It's just not something to, to consider. Yeah, taking precautions around grandma. Sure, sure. But like you doing something, not alone, something that isn't even effective, is not going to change the fact that grandma is at higher risk. And that's like a world of realism. And thinking about what what do we do about that? You know, what kind of treatment options are there? What else can we do for grandma? You know, why don't we give grandma and 95 baths and at least with honesty, like it may not help, but it might help a little bit when you go out. And so try this, rather than making people think that less of the flimsy or mass should always be used by everyone. So it's just a different place in terms of realism.
Dr. Paul 33:35
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I wonder, I wonder if you've wondered about this from a public health standpoint, if we had known what we knew now? No, we, what if we had just let the school stay open right through the pandemic, no masks, no isolation, no six foot distancing? Let kids get exposed to that virus. We know their natural immune system works very well, the the innate immune system, then the kids would be the actual protection for grandma, because they're not going to transmit the virus, they're immune. And obviously, your common sense is is is important. You don't visit grandma while you're sick.
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 34:18
Right. Yeah, yeah, I think I think that that the, the, you know, the application of common sense, you know, and there has been some debate not a lot in the academic community about whether it was the vaccines were even all appropriate for this condition for kids, you know, for the reasons that you're saying and for other reasons, including risks, both unknown and and both known and unknown. So I think that's a that's a legitimate point. And, and certainly the the data just, it's never said supported using like high quality, randomized, controlled trial data is just never supported using these in children. And even these observational studies that try and show the benefit. They they don't capture, they don't capture the risks. And they have problems with confounding, because we know that there, you know, there there tends to be a difference in overall risk between people who opt in for COVID-19 vaccine versus people who do not. Yeah.
Dr. Paul 35:35
So just to get to that point, then on the COVID, 19 vaccine, knowing what you know, now, what is your recommendation for children or people in general?
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 35:47
Well, I think just based on the data, so right now, it's Omicron. It's I mean, the studies that have showing infection fatality rates is incredibly, incredibly low. And virtually all of the risk is concentrated in people who are, say, 60 and above. So I think that for the vast majority of the population, it's just it just doesn't make any more sense. And then you don't not even mention the fact that study after study has shown that the protection wanes both protection from infection and protection from from severe outcomes. And in fact, it looks like after enough time, the the mRNA COVID-19, vaccines are associated with an increased risk of infection rather than a decreased risk. So I just I'm not seeing what the upside is, and in recommending these vaccines at all, at this point in the pandemic, I think really, we need to think more about treatment, early treatment for high risk people. I mean, it's just, you know, I don't know, is it is it a we trying to fund Pfizer and perpetuity or any at this point that the health, the health campaign component of these mRNA COVID-19 vaccines is just it's hard to afford to be co parent.
Dr. Paul 37:19
Yeah. And I think I might have read, but maybe I'm mistaken. Did you or did the Florida public health system or the governor actually stopped recommending this vaccine for children?
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 37:32
Oh, yes, we did. We did. Excellent.
Dr. Paul 37:37
Course. You know, they voted ACEP, the CDC arm that makes the vaccine recommendations to put vaccines on that CDC schedule for children. Sure, you know, they've they've
Unknown Speaker 37:49
approved that. Yeah, good luck with that.
Dr. Paul 37:54
I think the implementation, I mean, once it's approved, I think it's, it allows this liability free status to continue in perpetual duty. botch that word. But I think it allows states to make they can then make the decision to put it on the childhood schedule and exclude kids from school if they don't get it. And I I wonder if that we're going to start seeing that very soon. What do you think?
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 38:21
I think that they are scared, because parents, they tried to do that in LA, and they just kept the langit the the, the vaccine mandate in schools, because basically, at the end, they this is this is their dumb policies. And there were so many students who didn't comply. And la it, especially black and Hispanic students, that they, they basically, it was like a game of chicken and they, you know, they went first. So are they blinked first? So you so instead of just canceling it, they just say, Oh, we're gonna delay it till the next semester or whatever. And they've been doing that now for four years. So I don't think it's going to have any I don't think it's going to have any any traction. I think any school district that does it is going to end up falling on their faces.
Dr. Paul 39:21
I sure hope you're right. So what do you think about that whole technology, the mRNA platform, the nano technology, that's now I get the sense they're going to try to roll out a lot of vaccines. I know the Durnan is working on the RSV, one. I'm not sure that platform should be used at all. What are your thoughts?
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 39:47
Yeah, I think it's obviously really important question because they're just I think dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of these mRNA vaccine clinical trials ongoing and I want to apologize, I'm gonna have to step away in a moment. But I think we obviously need more testing more safety evaluation. I don't want the technology personally, I mean, it's just this whole thing is, is a doctor I'm always at least somewhat wary is you know, new technology because we always learn more stuff. But, but I don't like this technology for it. Are there specific conditions that eventually may be found to, for it to be of benefit? Great. But as a as a, as a tool for wide dissemination? I'm like, I'm not. I'm not fond about it. But pardon me? I'm not fond of it.
Dr. Paul 40:46
Sure. Well, before you step away, a couple last things. Do you have thoughts on passports? So vaccine passports? And then final words, you get you get the last word.
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 40:56
Thanks. All these vaccine passports, they should all be they should all be like burnt and actually, what would be a good use maybe recycled if they're paper? Just normally stupid ideas. They'll probably try again and the next pandemic if they get a chance. But hopefully they won't get a chance. But just it was it was just a just It's just a stupid idea. I just just cannot cannot go away fast enough.
Dr. Paul 41:27
We have apartheid on honestly, it's kind of a move step towards control and slavery and just doesn't feel right. Oh, it
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 41:35
doesn't. Yeah, no, I totally agree. I totally agree. It doesn't. It's heartless. It's, it's very, very tech oriented, rather than humanity oriented. And like, it's like, he'd sort of commoditize as humanity rather than sort of this techno health, sort of health, techno society rather than a society of human beings. So I totally I'm with you there. And, and as a last word, I would say, I would say thanks for what you're doing. And thanks for your integrity and your in your bravery. And same thing for for everyone out there. And I, I really do I wish everyone the best and, and, and I want you to pick up transcend fear and take a look at it and see if see if it resonates with you.
Dr. Paul 42:35
I have the book. I'm moving my office. So I was really bummed because it's packed. And I couldn't find it before I'm traveling right now, before I do this interview. Thank you so much for coming on this show. Thank you for your courage, and your leadership. And I look forward to seeing how you can guide not just Florida, but perhaps the rest of the country in the world into a better way of handling public health situations. There'll be more right?
Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD 43:05
Yes, there will be thanks, man. God bless you, man. God
Dr. Paul 43:11
bless you to
welcome Brandon to with the wind science revealed, this is actually a unique treat for me. You are a former patient of mine. And we were together when you had twins who I believe are now around seven years old. And you also told me you have a three year old. So it's a real privilege to have you on the show. Yeah, it's an absolute honor for me to talk with you. Give us a little background on yourself, your wife, your family, and then we'll jump into that experience you had with your first hospital experience having your twins.
Brandon Campbell 43:49
Yeah, absolutely. So we've kind of lived all over. But during that season of our life, we were living in Portland, we were born and raised in Washington. But work had taken us down to Portland. And we got married in 2005. We decided that we're going to wait a little bit to have kids what we didn't realize was that we were also going to have some fertility challenges. with that came the beginning of my wife, which I feel like is a hobby stories always start right the wife starts doing something researching something and it was all health related. It had nothing to do with kids or it had nothing to do. It was more us. How do we get ourselves healthy? Yeah, well, let's start looking at the toxic load that we have around the house. Because we were realizing maybe that had something to do with what we were facing. So you know, we had a great relationship, but obviously, you know, we wanted to have kids. So we started down some infertility treatments, which eventually led us to the point where we were pregnant with twins.
Dr. Paul 44:53
And that brings us to where you're at now and you're pregnant and starting to think about Hmm, what are we going to do about vaccines? AIDS.
Brandon Campbell 45:01
Yeah. And we walked into it. The hepatitis one never made sense to me at that early, just from from I didn't get it till I was actually till I went to Africa. So I was older in life. But I, you know that the other day, it was like, Okay, maybe vitamin K, we're not sure. And we didn't go in with a resolve, which was that it was not not wise on our part to go in with the absolute resolve of what we were going to do. Because you get into that moment and what ended up happening with us. So my wife's five foot one, she has two babies that are growing. Should we eat to 35 weeks, she also has preeclampsia. So we just went in for a Saturday, checkup and found out we were having babies that day. So it it's kind of that right there was shocking, right? You think, oh, well, it's a sad, we're just gonna go in. It's our weekly checkup they're gonna do and they're just like, No, we're, we're taking your babies.
Dr. Paul 46:02
So C section, I guess.
Brandon Campbell 46:05
Yeah, they gave her the option. But she was so tired that she just was like, I there's no way and actually ended up being a blessing because Brooklyn, who was I guess, technically, maybe a, she was kind of wrapped up in the cord. So that would have not been good. I think I'm not a doctor, but I'm just assuming that that would not have been. Do you remember their
Dr. Paul 46:27
Brandon Campbell 46:29
I do. They were 512 and 413.
Dr. Paul 46:33
People are probably wondering why I asked that question. And so the reason I asked that question is it's very interesting in they were probably in the neonatal intensive care right away. No, no. Okay. Well, what has traditionally happened for preemies and at 35 weeks, it can go either way, some 35 weekers, the size that your twins were, which was a very good size, by the way. About half of those babies make it on their own without needing the the ICU, the NICU, which is neonatal intensive care unit. Traditionally, for a couple decades, the health professionals in the neonatal intensive care, they're dealing with those tiniest of babies. I mean, some babies are born, you know, barely over a pound, right? I mean, they're just these tiny, tiny little preemies, they would treat preemies as if they were full term newborns as far as it goes with vaccines. And they did finally wake up to the fact that wait a minute, that's a lot of aluminum for a tiny, tiny body. It's still way too much aluminum, even for a 10 pound baby that have be shot is. But anyway, they at least eventually said you don't vaccinate until they're at least 2.5 kilos, which you know, your smallest twin was about that weight. So under current protocols, Most pediatricians and neonatologist would say, yep, just vaccinate according to the CDC schedule. But I want to highlight something and have you elaborate more. And you mentioned that you didn't go in armed with knowing exactly what you wanted to do. And that ended up probably making it challenging for you talk a little more about that.
Brandon Campbell 48:17
Yeah, and I'll even juxtapose that with our third daughter that was born, we did go in Absolutely. Knowing. And it was really hard. So yeah, so we and the reason is because and I don't know if folks that work there, do this on on purpose, but you honestly feel like you're the worst human being on Earth. If you're saying no to what they want, I mean, it's just forms you have to fill out, they have to tell you all the awful things that are going to happen for sure, to your child for not making this choice. And, you know, because of that, and, and because I think, I think with the vitamin K shot, they really play that up as far as what can happen. And I'm not saying that it can't happen. But it's scary stuff. And so we did allow that. And we did not want to but we did because we didn't go in 100% and and I think have the things to say. Yeah. For
Dr. Paul 49:27
what kind of things were they telling you? It sounds like you're bullied?
Brandon Campbell 49:31
Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, it was like, you know, you know, your baby can bleed out and die, because they just don't get the vitamin K for clotting. And so, you know, and I don't know what the stats were but they you know, they start saying like there's this percentage of kids that will die from a bleed out a brain bleed and you don't even know what's happening. And here's one that happened and this guy oh my gosh, and they you know, the vitamin K supplements or the drops? Well, those just they are those just don't work. And so you can't Was that? So? Yeah, I mean, it really felt like oh my gosh, I guess I guess we do this and they're asking you this right now. I mean, it's not like, hey, let's let's get them in, get them settled. Let's think about it. It's like, we got to know now. Yeah.
Dr. Paul 50:20
Well, for vitamin K, just to touch on that. It's there's risks and benefits for all procedures, right. And it's not that there's no benefits to getting vitamin K. There certainly are, there are, of course, by now you've probably done your research. And there are reports of, you know, brain bleeds in babies born, who didn't get the vitamin K. And, but there are also reports of harm from vitamin K, right. And so it's so hard is weighing out that risk benefit thing. And like with anything, it should ultimately be the parents choice. And I think that's what you're advocating for. The Hepatitis B is a little simpler. I'll even let you describe your thought processes. Because you went through this twice. First time you went in, less prepared. Second time you were more prepared. Tell tell us how those discussions with
Brandon Campbell 51:15
hepatitis. I don't know that I had done a ton of the research yet on the aluminum content, or any of the reasons why it on it just didn't make sense to me why we were doing that. Because, again, I I didn't have it till I went to Africa. And I went all through school, it just and knowing where you get hepatitis B, you know,
Dr. Paul 51:42
I know my wife, which is where where do you get hepatitis B?
Brandon Campbell 51:46
Needles and sexual activity with pokes that are infected?
Dr. Paul 51:51
Correct. And babies don't do that.
Brandon Campbell 51:54
And my wife wasn't either. And I wasn't either. So
Dr. Paul 51:58
yeah, it's it's almost insulting, right? We doctors would I used to do this. I'm ashamed to admit it way, way back a couple of decades ago. Well, you know, you can't be sure about your risk factors, you know, your partner may not be honest, I mean, crazy stuff, right? I mean, what, like, we're not going to trust you the the individual sitting right in front of me, you might be lying to me, therefore, I'm going to do what I need to do.
Brandon Campbell 52:25
Wow. Yeah. It is that so that one to me was it was the easier one to just say, No, we're not. There's absolutely no way we're doing that. I mean, yeah, I had mentioned going to Africa, but you know, we had just my wife and I, when we were going to Uganda, you know, we just rolled up our sleeves. This was in 2009. So quite a bit before. And it was just, you know, in both arms with a whole bunch of Ni C's, we weren't even thinking anything of that. So there's a big shift to 2015 where we get to, and I honestly, I think having the knowledge for the next time was was easier, though, I felt they were even more intense. So our daughters were born in Portland, the twins. And then our third was actually born in Spokane, where we had moved back to, and they were, they were ruthless. did describe that a little bit. So that they sent in multiple people. They wasn't just the one attending. She sat there she, you know, told me all the things she really got into because I read a study that showed that oral Vitamin K is fairly is a PubMed study, and it's fairly effective to help. And so she but she was just like, it's, it doesn't do anything. You can't, there's nothing you can do. And I just was like, No, we're not doing it. Absolutely not going to do it. And she just kept going and going and going. And finally I said, Okay, show me the package inserts. Show me the side effects. And I'll think about it. And guess what? She couldn't produce them.
Dr. Paul 54:06
She couldn't produce the package insert? Nope. Wow. So that was a brilliant approach, because every medication has a package insert. And in the package insert is all the information known at the time the drug was released to the market, they're required by law to put all the side effects in there that they've seen. And you would have had right in front of you some of the problems, right. And so probably that's why she didn't want to produce it.
Brandon Campbell 54:39
I think that's probably it. Yes. And then they had the attending pediatrician come in after she was born and they had to do the whole thing again. And she was a lot nicer, but I still I said provide me the answers. And she couldn't do it. Which was always very bizarre to me, but cuz I know that they have to be there. She couldn't do it. And then it just became easy. But you know, it's also a little intimidating. And they start having you fill these forms, and you have to sign these things. And, you know, it's almost like, Well, gosh, am I going to have someone come here? And not let me leave? Because I sign these forms saying, no, no, and their liability release forms, I guess. But. So
Dr. Paul 55:25
we bring up a good point, when you sign forms that might have legal implications, read them carefully. If there's anything in there that says you are knowingly harming your child, because a lot of them have that kind of wording in there, you cross it out and initial it. And maybe you even add, there are risks and benefits to both sides of this decision. Because, you know, I early on before, I sort of really tuned into that I used to have my patients sign vaccine refusal forms, that had some language that really could have perhaps been used against them, right. And I wasn't doing that on purpose, I just wasn't tuned into that one little line that had been put in there by the Academy of Pediatrics, I am knowingly harming my child or potentially harming my child. You there, you can just imagine, Child Protective Services knocking on your door. And yeah, that's happened in some states. So yes, anytime you're asked to sign something, read it carefully, and make sure you're not signing anything that's self incriminating. I think that'll be important. It doesn't feel safe in hospitals anymore, in a sense that you don't feel like your doctors are on your team. It feels like they're on a different team with a different agenda. And their agenda is
Brandon Campbell 56:46
Dr. Paul 56:48
the exact opposite at times of what you want to do, at least around the vaccine issue. That seems to be the case, right? Yeah.
Brandon Campbell 56:55
We have a rule now. And this is because of other things that we've had with family members that you're not allowed to be alone. Because we feel like there's just no advocacy,
Dr. Paul 57:05
one of the toughest things I have to deal with when I'm thinking about my colleagues, other doctors is we're supposed to give informed consent, right? That's that process where you tell your patient, in this case, you would tell the parent who's got a new baby, the pros and the cons of the decisions, right, whether it's the vitamin K, or the Hepatitis B shot at this, that initial newborn, and you do the pros and the cons and the alternatives, and one of the alternatives should always be not doing the recommended procedure. Or in other words, not giving the the shot. And you won't get that from 99% of pediatricians who come into the hospital in America today, you will get what they call informed consent. They're still calling it that. But it's it's not you are given the pros of the of the procedure, the vaccine and the vitamin K, the negatives are whitewashed. Oh, it's completely safe. I mean, you don't need to worry about it's one of the million that you'll hear that quoted. And you won't be given the package insert, not that that's practical. It's a huge document. But you certainly will not be given the alternative of you don't have to take it. So you're now entering a world where there's no informed consent. It's a protocol and you just do it. You are so spot on folks, we learned from COVID The absolute worst thing you can do to your loved one is leave them alone in the hospital. When you said that it was like, bam, to you. Nothing could be further from the truth. That's if you have a baby, you don't leave him alone in the hospital. I can't tell you how many times the nurse was going well, we're just gonna take the baby to the nursery, so you can have a break. And they come back and they've gotten a shot. And the parents had explicitly said verbally and had written birth plan. No hepatitis B, and they got it anyway.
Brandon Campbell 58:57
Yeah, that would not have been a good thing. For them. Yeah. And we were really rigorous about the only time they had to be away from us was a carseat test, I think. Because they were so tiny.
Dr. Paul 59:09
Yeah. I would say even then you just, yeah, you do not let your child out of your sight. And if it's a parent who's in the hospital for whatever it is, whether it's surgery, you sent somebody's with them, they they won't always let you into the operating room. But besides that, you should be with your loved ones at all times, to thoughts, what are your recommendations for new parents and any other final thoughts you have?
Brandon Campbell 59:38
My biggest recommendation is for any new parent, I don't care if they have never even considered that. You know, they might do something different with vaccines is you have to do your own research. You can't trust what the doctors say you can't trust what a pharmaceutical company could say or any of that you You have to do the research, it takes time it takes energy. And you will be thankful for even if you do the research and you come to a different conclusion than I did. I don't actually think you will. But if, if you do, that's okay. Because then you're able to you, you will look back on the decisions that you made and feel good about those decisions. Because you did the research. If you don't, and you make a different choice, and you get down the line, you have a whole lot of other things that you might have to deal with, just in your own mind because of that. So that was big for us. I wish I would have done more. And so to me, do the research and make your own informed consent because you won't receive it. Excellent advice.
Dr. Paul 1:00:47
You mentioned high wire, there's children's health defense, their defender journal that comes out daily. There's so many other great resources on substack. This show for those of you who want to share that with your loved ones. Do you have any final thoughts?
Brandon Campbell 1:01:04
I just appreciate what you and so many others are doing because you're right. It is a very broken system. And it's very, very unfortunate. What happens when you speak out, I saw another one recently, who's he's they're coming after as well. But thank you for what you do. And it's terrible to have to take that and walk down that but the things that you've been able to accomplish and will accomplish, I think I'm just beginning. So I'm excited for you and what's going to happen and thank you. And thank
Dr. Paul 1:01:41
you, Brandon. I really appreciate you coming on the show and you've provided a piece of information. Well, a whole lot of information but some very important information for everybody to pay attention to.
Brandon Campbell 1:01:53
God bless. Thank you.
Dr. Paul 1:02:01
I look forward to running together with the wind at our backs, revealing the science that gives clarity in our world that's full of propaganda and misinformation. Visit our website, doctors and science.com Sign up. Donate if you can. Your support makes a difference. And let's make this the weekly show the world has been waiting for. Thanks for watching. I'm Dr. Paul.
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