Dr. Paul 0:07
Dr. Paul Welcome to with the wind science revealed. My guest today is OB GYN, Dr. Nathan Riley as a young OB GYN he has made the transition from the medical model that most other doctors are practicing in to supporting midwives and home births. He's got a midwife collaboration program. He's got a Born Free method, a holistic approach to HPV and preventing cancer. And the shocking thing to me was when C section rates and hospitals are running 30 to 40%, he still deals with high risk pregnancies and has a home birth C section rate of less than 5%. It's crazy impressive. Now, the ending DD Hoover does a masterful job of playing devil's advocate, and then getting into some really controversial topics, you're not gonna want to miss it. Enjoy the show.
Dr. Paul, coming to you from the heart. My topic today is gratitude. But it's a specific gratitude. I want to thank all of you who are speaking truth to power. Thank you, for those of you who are standing up for people who have no sense of power, who have no hope. You know, so many of you are risking your careers, even relationships to do what's right. And we need more of that. So I applaud and encourage all of us to stand for what we know needs to be done in our world today. You know, peaceful disobedience. Sometimes it's necessary. And I think it's important, especially in everything we've seen happen in the last few years. So I am in gratitude to all of you, we need to continue to have compassion for people who feel differently. People who disagree with us, people who maybe are even what we would consider our enemies. But let's lead with love. We certainly have endless opportunities for forgiveness. But I feel a shift is coming. So let's stay strong. In what we're doing.
Welcome, Dr. Nathan Riley, it is such a privilege to have you back on the show. Dr.
Dr. Nathan Riley 2:26
Thomas, it's always a pleasure to meet another person who's not just out there like self promoting, but is actually reading literature and still in helping to try to navigate this whole informed consent thing. Like it's really, I feel so refreshed, just having spent some time with you earlier today. It's just, it's an honor. So I'm happy that we get to spend more time together.
Dr. Paul 2:46
Yeah, the feeling's mutual, you are a rare, indeed, breed of an OBGYN. You're board certified in that specialty, which is the group of doctors who take care of pregnant women, right? And female issues. A you're a co creator of the Born Free method and clear and free your holistic solution to persistent HPV, which we're going to talk about before we're done. But I wanted to start with because not everybody necessarily knows your story. How the heck does a OBGYN get disillusioned with traditional care? And start doing all these incredible innovative things you're doing? What's your journey there?
Dr. Nathan Riley 3:26
I probably get a different answer to this all the time. And I don't want to be disparaging to people who are still inclined to go to the hospitals and clinics. But for me personally, as a man as like a lifelong student, I just found I wasn't getting support from people that were training me or that my colleagues and whatnot for just asking questions and wanting to investigate those answers and be willing to be wrong. Nobody really out there likes being wrong. I've been wrong about like 90% of the things that I've conjecture, but I've also been right about 10%. And those 10% have not only gotten me in trouble, but they've also been the sort of seeds that have grown into these really extraordinary conversations I've had with people who have felt let down by the system. So I'm serving a minority. But that minority is really I think growing and blossoming into a large minority and perhaps will eventually be the majority and that really sunrays people that I think have become disillusioned with this sort of illusion of safety that's been offered by the medical establishment, the medical industrial complex, and I still think there's good reasons to go to the hospital and sometimes get C sections and whatnot. But like, a lot of people are being broken by that system. So I didn't take an oath to perpetuate a broken system. I took an oath to take care of people and that's what I do now. Yeah,
Dr. Paul 4:42
that's awesome. So when you went to medical school, did you have any idea your career would take this trajectory? Hell no.
Dr. Nathan Riley 4:50
I was I thought I'd have a 401k and I'd be making several $100,000 per year and driving an Audi and whatnot. And granted I'm not like hurting financially but I don't live in California. are nowhere the cost of living is extraordinarily high. I live in Kentucky and we have two little girls the second was born at home and I work with midwives. Now I'm like a student of midwifery now. So yeah, I did not. That's where my career was gonna go. That's for sure that
Dr. Paul 5:14
that is just amazing. And so you're in your let's just go back to your in your OB GYN residency, I remember rubbing elbows with the OB GYN residents, because as a pediatrician, or in the delivery, you guys are cutting the babies out and handing them off to us. And we're writing them off and occasionally giving them oxygen, whatever we had to do. The system that we were trained in, was all we knew. How did you end up waking up to the fact that maybe there's a better way or a different way that seems to have what kind of health outcomes are you seeing?
Dr. Nathan Riley 5:48
It pretty simple. I started listening, started listening to people and women who had let's say, I'll go back to my medical school training. I had a really great attending. I did an OB anesthesiology, rotation for whatever God and if for whatever reason, and I think part of it was like, Oh, maybe I want to play epidurals and spinals there are in certain parts of the world OB Joanne's can do that you have the skills to do it, you just haven't trained to do it. So let me go and do that. I realized man, these are like the ultimate customer service agents. And there was a there was a an attending I had who's remained good friends of mine, she now has a trauma informed, completely free prenatal practice up in Pittsburgh, her name is Tracy Vogel, and she still works as an OB anesthesiologist. But she shared so many stories with me when I was rotating with her about women who had like, natural, physiologic births, what you're thinking of what people were listening or thinking of. And they've still felt like something wasn't right. And I found that to be so interesting was like, what could you possibly complain about you have a healthy mom healthy baby. And when you start to unpack that, you realize the way that we speak to people, the way that we that we honor the experience that is actually everything. And as if now Father, I realized that the way that a doctor speaks to me or touches my daughter, or makes me feel like they're actually seeing me as a person, I am not a dumb guy. I'm not the smartest guy. But I'm not like a total idiot, either. The way that they spoke to me that the way that they made me feel seen and heard was actually everything. And I realized that women in the hospital system giving birth, were not feeling seen, they were not feeling like they were being given a real fair shake and informed consent, they were having information withheld, so that they could stay on medical train, and the doctors and the nurses and whoever all good people with good intentions, could continue doing things the way that they were doing it. Oftentimes, I think at the cost of persons fully embodied birth experience, which I don't see a medical procedure, I see it as a very sacred transformation. I've gone through the birth of my own children. That is a really intensely exciting and also oftentimes very scary experience. I didn't feel like I was prepared with those tools. And by listening to women and their partners and their families, I realized I got to do things differently, because I can't continue to do it this way. Even though the stats would tell you it's safe and all this other stuff. They're saying I didn't feel safe. So what is that unpacking that and listening to people is really I think, where I started getting nudged out, I saw myself out it was like maybe I just don't belong here.
Dr. Paul 8:22
So then, how long have you been doing home births or supporting midwives who are doing home births.
Dr. Nathan Riley 8:30
About five years now, for for only four years actually, I practiced in Encinitas and Adonis scripts. While I was in fellowship for hospice and palliative care. I'm actually dual board certified. And while I was in hospice fellowship training, I was working as a full time OB GYN in a Scripps hospital doing all of this stuff as a hospitalist meaning I was there to do all the emergency things whenever their doctors weren't available to come in. And, and lab, it was a really great place. Lots of C sections, lots of like, really emergency kind of stuff. And then when I got recruited out to Kentucky, it was about six months into my tenure there. And I was like, I can't do this. There's people calling me in to help with C sections, and they want to talk about their kids basketball games, and they wanted me to go to stuff and I'm like, this is a person who's going through the the most nightmarish thing of their life and emergency C section. And we're just going to like casually just babble about whatever small talk. So I call the call it quits there and immediately found myself in a space where I could either start a homebirth practice myself, or if I really believe in withevery, I read midwives. And that's when I started collaborating with midwives around the country. And then that led me naturally into home birth, because there's a lot of midwives who can't practice based on licensing restrictions and whatnot, they can't see certain people. And then those people, their only option is to go to the hospital. If we can pay attention to certain things and we can dial in your lifestyle, maybe detox before your pregnancy, all those types of things. You don't have to worry about those pregnancy complications, but nobody's doing The network. So I find myself in this kind of strange niche taking care of high risk people from their past pregnancies and helping them have their dream birth in a current pregnancy.
Dr. Paul 10:07
Wow. You've probably helped hundreds already.
Dr. Nathan Riley 10:13
Yeah, it was like 1000 plus first when I finished my my year down in Encinitas. And now if you were to if you were to take the births, I've gone to myself, and the number of women I've supported in pregnancy buy in, by means of supporting their midwife, it's probably been 1000s It's the most rewarding sort of path I could have found myself on.
Dr. Paul 10:33
You are a blessing to to the whole birth industry. Yeah, it takes real guts to have the extensive training that you've had. And I would also add maybe indoctrination. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Then be able to break away and support midwives. What a blessing. I remember when my mom was a nurse midwife in the Ohio Valley, and she was training, she was a certified nurse midwife from Yale, training lay midwives so that they would recognize high risk situations. Wow. Cool. And they could not find OBGYN to support them. Yeah, yeah,
Dr. Nathan Riley 11:08
that's I think that's a national growing problem. Nationally, there's a lot of states where was they could have attended 10,000 birst. They cannot practice midwifery. Without a quote, collaborative physician or a supervising physician as if I this like young guy, who trained in the medical system has any has any real insights into what's going on in our hospital birth, this is apples and oranges. Fortunately, I straddle those two worlds, and I've been able to support midwives and keep them in practice, and not make the money. I'm not charging the homebirth fees that a lot of people do when I do go to homebirths. Yeah, there's a fear but, but instead of hiring me, let me just support your midwife so they can take care of you at one time. So it was more of a It's not self selfless. It's more just Lin if we want to have the most impact. Where who is doing the best birth work? It's midwives. Yeah. So let's put our resources towards that. I'd like the whole country to do that. But for now, I'm like, an n of one who's supporting midwives. And now 24 states. I've got 24 medical licenses. It's a lot.
Dr. Paul 12:16
Yeah, so I know your website's beloved holistics.com. And they can click on a link there for midwife collaboration program. Yeah. And of course, your podcast, which was just on your podcast. It's an amazing podcast. Thank you. I had an interesting question. I didn't warn you about this one. But it just popped in my head. Having been on your podcast, what have you learned from others in your podcast that just stand out? Wow.
Dr. Nathan Riley 12:44
No, I, the joy of having a podcast is I can bring in people that are relative. I don't know what the word expert means anymore. But there are people that have been so deeply thoughtful and committed to certain trying to understand certain things about the human experience that is so relevant to birth work, for example, like intimacy between let's just like a male and a female, like a heterosexual relationship. The opportunity that men are seeking now to be a part of this experience are really show up in a very different form of masculinity, compared to what we maybe what our fathers, our brothers, our frat fraternity brothers, whatever was modeled to us, that doesn't really serve us nowadays. If you want to be fully invested in this birth process, I get the opportunity to bring people on that are experts in Tantra. They're experts in the sort of work of David data of divine masculinity, divine femininity, it really helps it put together the whole story of the human experience, as opposed to looking at ourselves as this automated, robotic kind of automobile. The best, the greatest insights that I've gained are actually things that I've liked John Weinland, was a guest recently and read his book and like my sex life with my wife started getting better, like these little bits of information that are there less about this sort of linear process of what you do in life and more about actually embracing presence, and community and connection with the people we love the most, including my own little girls. It's a joy to have a podcast like that you can just have these conversations that were either genuinely curious, and then we can unpack it in conversation or kind of a flow. That's I think that's probably the the greatest insights that I've gained from guests on my podcast.
Dr. Paul 14:30
Dr. Nathan Riley 14:30
What about you? I'm curious.
Dr. Paul 14:32
I sure I could go there. Let me finish this thought though. Okay. Well, I was visiting with my daughter just this last week, and she's eight months pregnant, and she's gonna do a home birth, and she has a midwife support but that's it. She doesn't have you in the background. So I'm really glad to know about you. And I'm going to tell her about you but never mind. I'm having this conversation with her husband. And he made the comment this childbirth at home stuff. I'm just gonna be in the background. I'll bring the hot water and I'll serve coffee. And then I'm listening to your description of being in touch with your soul and the purpose of connecting that. And thinking, Okay, I need to send him to your podcast. Yeah, I
Dr. Nathan Riley 15:12
do as much counseling of soon to be fathers as I do pregnant women nowadays because Yeah, listen, the pregnancy thing is actually the easy part. What's going to come for the next 18 years raising this little child? That's really what that's the hard part of having a baby, I
Dr. Paul 15:26
think. Yeah, no, absolutely. And navigating all these tough decisions, which I know both of us handle on our podcast. So yeah, to flip it back on myself, you're asking me what I've learned. I'll say it for COVID. Especially, because I was pretty versed in pediatrics. That was my wheelhouse. And then comes COVID is what the heck is this? First of all, it just descends upon us. And we're all like scrambling to try to figure it out. And I've since had countless amazing people, Peter McCullough, Pierre Corey, and countless others who are really on the cutting edge of yeah, not only did they figure it out, but they're speaking up standing strong when they're being censored. Yeah,
Dr. Nathan Riley 16:14
yeah. And who else is gonna give them that platform? Like nowadays, the media at large is not really interested in those conversations. But we get to just do this and get learn from one another. And at the end of the day, you're just a person, I'm just a person. And every single day, I have to figure out where do I put my attention? Oh, Paul Thomas was just on my podcast. And he said something that stuck with me. And that's like, a different path for me to go down. And that's, that's really, I think, how we're going to evolve medicine. That's where we're going to really move our society in the right direction is having honest conversations with people that are willing to just say, I don't know, what do you think that's really I think what Miss and that's what drew me into medicine in the first place is having that collegiality? I don't have that in my life right now.
Dr. Paul 16:54
Yeah, no, it's so true. I'm really grateful for your podcast. I imagine you've covered COVID and masks a bit on your show.
Dr. Nathan Riley 17:02
Oh, yeah. James Thorpe, who's an OBGYN MFM, Florida. He was on the podcast recently. Yeah, all of those things have actually become a big part of unfortunately, as become a sort of the forefront of my whole practice. Because let's take the farm, for example. animes sort of legacy in Summertown, Tennessee, the farm midwifery practice used to attract people from around the world to have a really unusual birth experience on this farm, this commune in Tennessee, but then COVID happened in midwives shit the bed more than anybody. Suddenly they like, succumb to this fear. And now you had to have a mask on and you have to be double or triple boosted and all this stuff. And I'm speaking as a peripheral observer, right? Some of these birth centers that were radically different, they just succumb to this notion that you have to have a mask on while you're giving birth and all this and a lot of women were like, No, my wife included, we're having a home birth, because I'm not wearing a mask and pushing my baby out. I'm not going to do that. I'm not gonna shove a stick up my nose, while I'm actively laboring like, right, it's just not going to happen. So we've had a lot of conversations like that. And
Dr. Paul 18:09
your observation is, since you've been open minded about the fact that maybe those masks weren't really doing much, you've probably had plenty of exposure, the last two, three years of home, childbirth done, unmasked. And how did everything how did it go? Were they putting themselves at risk?
Dr. Nathan Riley 18:28
I think that there's two elements to this. And we talked a little bit about this on my podcast when you were on recently. The first is that people who succumb to this fear and that there's some sort of external device that's going to save them, they actually end up using that as a surrogate for living healthy lives. The people that are walking around with no vaccines, no masks, and they're not getting sick, their families not getting sick, and when it's because they're actually probably living a healthy life. But the second part of it is that when as soon as you succumb to fear, you're going to show up, in a way in childbirth or otherwise, that reflects a world that is scary, that you're going to get hurt. And all that like that becomes your reality, like your world does become scarier. And we could talk about the neuro chemistry of fear and how it suppresses the immune system and polyvagal theory and all of this. But truthfully, the people that are birthing with me and a lot of my colleagues, including Sarah Rosser, who's one of the most incredible midwives I've ever worked with, they're healthy people, and they're just not willing to play the fear game. They're like, Yeah, this is an exciting thing. And I'm not going to go through this already very exciting thing is sometimes scary thing, childbirth, and simultaneously be afraid I'm going to get sick or whatever else. I'm just not going to play into that. And that actually, I think is reflected in some of our statistics and my low C section rates and everything else fears pickle.
Dr. Paul 19:49
Yeah, actually, you've got to share your C section rate because I learned it on when I was on your podcast, but you are dealing actually with a lot of high risk pregnancies in the sense that they've had other problems in the past with past pregnancies that almost any other OB GYN would say, is a requirement to deliver in the hospital. Yet you're supporting people to have these subsequent births at home. And what's your C section rate been?
Dr. Nathan Riley 20:16
Four to 5%? Consistently? Wow. systole? Yeah, yeah. And they are not low risk. These are higher risk women. Yeah. Yeah,
Dr. Paul 20:25
that blows my mind. Because there are big downsides to having a C section for both the baby and the mom. Yeah. And so instead of a 30 40% C section rate had these high risk pregnancies gone to the hospital, you're at less than 5%. What a gift you giving these families? And sure I'm some of those 5% that end up in the hospital. I imagine it's a bit of a scramble, but I'm sure they have a contingency plan. So they do. Okay. A big part of it is setting some very clear expectations, right? Listen,
Dr. Nathan Riley 20:59
I can't promise anything, I'm not going to guarantee anything. In fact, even a baby that comes by C section in the hospital, healthy mom healthy baby means nothing to me. Because like you said, our composite scores generally don't take into account the less the non measurable things, the mental, emotional, even spiritual aspects of this process. Which is why when I was telling you that in the hospital, just having a breathing and Linkbait afterwards, not everything for people, but also we do so much preparation, way in advance even before they get pregnant. We do some we look, we look at phase one and phase two metabolism in the liver. Have we detoxified from you from all this other job? Are you eating organic food? Are you eating nutritious foods? Are you moving adequately? Are you hydrating? Well with living water, not like crappy water from your sink? Are you sleeping well, their adrenals in order like How was your emotional boundaries, we get all of that in order and it no surprise then that they have a lower risk of these pregnancy complications arising and subsequent pregnancies. It's what can we do to avoid those things that you've been told are inevitable? And it turns out, there's a lot in people's control. And I don't think a lot of doctors are trained on how to do a variety of those things. So I have this kind of magic combination of things that gets people to where they want to go.
Dr. Paul 22:15
Yeah, I imagine this is incorporated in your Born Free method. This is the whole
Dr. Nathan Riley 22:21
thing. I don't have enough time in my days to take everybody one on one. So I say join the community. We're in free method. It teaches you everything, including vaccines and ultrasounds and all these other things that are controversial, or at least growing in controversy. For some people, we cover everything, including all the lifestyle stuff that you can use right now to avoid that, and I become like your concierge guy, but I can't do it one on one with every single person that comes to me. So we built the program, and it's going really well. So
Dr. Paul 22:49
fantastic. Thank you for doing that. That's, that's the direction I'm going as well. We need to reach more people. So yeah, absolutely great that you've done that. Let's pivot a little bit to your HPV program. You've got a free holistic solution to persistent HPV. And I think you have some pretty strong thoughts about cancer screening and prevention and mitigation of abnormal results. What can you share? So
Dr. Nathan Riley 23:12
we've got about 14 million per year, people per year diagnosed with HPV in our country alone, but 80 million people are living with it. So let's pause there. Those are big numbers, right? The issue though that I have with it is number one, viruses are not living things are not out to get us all these vaccines that you and I have shot the breeze over? Do you really need to be vaccinated against every possible virus? Probably not. I think most people are going to be do just fine. And if you're not doing just fine, like human papilloma virus, a little tiny strand of DNA, just floating around in a viral protein capsule. If you get that, and your body is not able to kick it, or what I say is integrate it and there's a signal there. What is the signal there's something going on with your immune system. And furthermore, your immune system is also responsible through NK cells and other T cells to scavenge precancerous cells. You and I both have cancer cells, but we have a strong immune system that goes around and says, Nope, you're not you don't belong Nope, you don't belong. The macrophages spit them out and you're fine. What happens the OBGYN clinics that this is what I was trained to do was that people arrive they get their routine Pap smear, something's abnormal, or the HPV screen is positive, it's abnormal. So you end up coming back in six to 12 months and we're hoping and praying that it's not abnormal anymore. The OB GYN are not giving women or their partners for that matter, any tools in order to take this signal as an opportunity to get something in their lifestyle, better in order. So in that six to 12 months, by the way, Paul HPV transmission to abnormal cells showing up months to years, and then from that, what we call cervical intraepithelial neoplasia cin. When that progresses for a tip progressed to invasive cancer years, two decades, and yet nobody in these clinics and these multiple visits, the biopsies, the excisional procedures, nobody's giving you any tools in order to help get whatever's upstream, back in order so that this is not an issue for you for the rest of your life. Yeah, so. So anyways, the immune system just boosts the immune system, right. So
Dr. Paul 25:24
boosts the immune system. Yeah.
Dr. Nathan Riley 25:26
But what your OB GYN will offer you instead of telling you, Hey, listen, it's a 90% chance this is gonna go away on its own, and we can boosts that dramatically, almost to 100%. I'm not going to say 100% Because that's not fair. But almost not 100% If we can get your diet and your movement, your sleep and all those things in order. So even if you do develop abnormal cells, that sin three, that's the next step before invasive cancer 50% is going to regress on its own. So all we have to do is say Okay, listen, there is a risk here. But what can we do what's in your control? The OBGYN nurse practitioners and midwives. I'm doing that so now I have to do that. It's another thing that it's she's Oh, man. Now I have to do this. Take this whole approach like I did with pregnancy and childbirth, and I have to do the unpopular thing. But women are clearing HPV they're clearing their cervical dysplasia, and it's not rocket science. It's just very basic things. Yeah, that's exciting. I remember reading a paper some years back on HPV vaccine. It was in JAMA, and it was claiming that it was reducing cancer and I, as I read through the data carefully, the rates of sin three, which is the most closest to actual cancer had gone up in the vaccinated, let's talk about it. But the abstract and the title suggested that the HPV vaccine was reducing your risk. So what's your take on the HPV vaccine at this point? So what you just described was negative equity efficacy. Let's get we'll get there in 60 seconds. Let's first start by looking at our favorite pharmaceutical company. Merck, who in the early 2000s, was facing 10s of millions of dollars in lawsuits due to Vioxx. Vioxx was causing heart attacks. It's an NSAID, like ibuprofen, was causing all these issues. They were hit with tons of lawsuits, they were gonna go bankrupt through a Hail Mary, and created an entire PR campaign around preventing cervical cancer, and they launched their Gardasil vaccine, which is now called Gardasil nine. There are three variations of cervical cancer vaccines, if you want to call them that. The third Gardasil nine is the currently the only one available market in the United States. It was advertised through the be one less campaign, this is in the early 2000s. I think 2006 is when Gardasil nine was released, if I recall, it was advertised as a means of preventing cervical cancer. The problem is, for the reasons I mentioned, cervical cancer takes years two decades to develop. So we can't measure that as the primary endpoint in our studies. So what they did was using some less than honest placebo controlled trials, I'm using air quotes on my end is that they use to send to incent three as the surrogate markers because those hand progressed to cervical cancer, even though a big portion of those will regress on their own even without my help. The problem here is that it had been since parents had become so conditioned through this be one less campaign to think that they were being irresponsible for not vaccinating their children, which by the way, this is offered as early as age nine, before you become sexually active to boys and girls, my little girls are going to be offered this as well as a means of preventing cervical cancer, but it was never demonstrated to prevent cervical cancer. And when you've been exposed to the high risk strains of HPV 16 and 18, in particular, and you get the vaccine, they saw that these women were more likely to develop sin to incent three after they had been after the vaccine had been administered. Once they'd already been exposed to 16 and 18. So one way to look at that is the vaccine caused the cancer. I do think that vaccines certainly dis regulate the immune system. I don't think it's fair to say it caused it any more than cigarettes cause cancer or lung cancer because not everybody who smokes gets lung cancer. Not everybody who got this vaccine got cervical cancer, but there's definitely there's definitely something there to explore. And the unwillingness of our medical system to explore this and ask the questions is what has led so many women to be feel completely powerless and really not just powerless, but they're succumbing to this fear that once they get that positive HPV screen that it's doomsday around the corner, and that's just simply not the case. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 29:33
So you might have answered this and I missed it. But what do you tell those women who've gotten the HPV vaccine? And now they're worried or is there something they can do?
Dr. Nathan Riley 29:48
Similarly to all the hepatitis B, for example, like all these other vaccines that we're giving kids, I say, great, you got the vaccine. I don't really care if you got the vaccine. I don't think that it protects you. I don't think it's necessarily in Eisah Leyshon outside of the 72 dose 72 dose vaccine schedule. I don't think in isolation, it's the end of the world plus, we can't unvaccinated you. So let's let the you know, bygones be bygones. Let's worry about everything that is in your power in order to make sure that your immune system, your nervous system, your endocrine systems, all those systems are working in your biodynamic being in order to make sure that you're not predisposed to some serious infection or consequence that infection in the future and this goes to Coronavirus, flu anything like there's no, there's no reason, Paul for us to be afraid of viruses, they outnumber bacteria 10 to one, at least in nature. So if we if viruses are out to get us, we're all doomed because they're everywhere. They're all over us. So what can we do if we're not looking at diet and our clean water, air and soil if we're not sleeping? Well, if we're not setting emotional boundaries, not managing stress? Yeah, you could get sick and die from a viral infection. That's a real shame because we've got so much money and resources in our country. And the best the OBGYN is can do is say, Oh, come back in six to 12 months, we'll repeat the screen. And hey, if it's still positive, we might need to take a painful biopsy, no anesthesia for that. That's this colposcopy with biopsy. And then if you end up in excisional procedure, we're lopping the top of your cervix off. There's all sorts of issues with that that's an erogenous zone. That's one of your sexual organs. It has pregnancy implications, all sorts of things. So my whole thing is, Listen, don't be afraid. What is in your control? Let's work on those things that are in your control. Wow.
Dr. Paul 31:33
I was gonna ask you what is the most important thing you want people to remember? I think you just answered it. That's it, right? This is amazing so people can reach you. Find you at beloved holistics.com You can forward slash podcast to get to the podcast, you can click on the midwifery collaboration program. You're born free method. This HPV information. Impressive. Don't leave folks. I'm going to have Didi Hoover. Talk with Dr. Nathan Riley. On a personal level. She has that knack for just getting real. You guys have fun. Wait. Thanks, Paul.
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 32:09
Thank you, Dr. Nathan for joining me and being willing to be put through the DD interview. Oh, yeah, mom. So I had to tell you I was listening to your your episode that you did with Dr. Paul on your show. And you play devil's advocate and then he played devil's advocate. You froze her terrible about at Devil's advocate. So let me show you how devil's advocate is supposed to be played. Are you ready? Sure. Okay. Dr. Riley, it is so much better for the baby to get vaccinated through the mom. And because of that way, if the mom catches these diseases, then the baby is protected. Also, what if the mom were to get hurt the mom catches the diseases not only the baby protected but the the moms protected because I'm serious. Think about this. Dr. Riley? If mom are to get polio, when she's pregnant with the baby, she could die and then the baby would die. Do you understand that? Why do you not recommend shots during pregnancy? I think that's insane that you don't that's how you play devil's advocate. By the way. That's
Dr. Nathan Riley 33:23
good. That's nice. I like that you set me up. That's a softball though. You gotta we're playing in the big leagues, and I'm just kidding.
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 33:31
At Yeah, I think that's pretty big league with what's going
Unknown Speaker 33:33
on in the world? Yeah, no.
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 33:35
Okay, how about COVID? I shut that COVID Dang it. I want
Dr. Nathan Riley 33:39
to reiterate this whole fear around viruses, right most of the things that we're vaccinating against that we're trying to get an immune response towards to protect us or against viruses which outnumber bacteria 10 to one. If viruses are the bad guys, then we are doomed. There's no amount of vaccines that are going to protect us because the Coronavirus the SARS cov. Two that big name SARS cov. Two reflects a specific strain of Coronavirus, which is why a flu vaccines don't work that well, which is why the COVID shots aren't going to work that well. And so if we're thinking about vaccinating a pregnant woman, and we're really concerned about our health, if that's our if that's our motivation, why are we doing more in order to support their health through systemic change, radical reform and how we feed ourselves, the nutritious the available of nutritious food? If we're really concerned about viral infection, and viruses are going to win if they're bad guys, they're always going to win. The inability for us to just take the information from this little nucleic acid strip this little microscopic, like electro microscopic, like these are little fragments of stuff. If that's the big concern, why are we investing as much as we can into helping pregnant women be as healthy as possible, from the moment that they get that positive pregnancy test. That's my actual life.
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 35:05
And even before that, I think that's the Yeah. Anybody have your and we talk about that with our nutritional stuff. But my what I want you to explain to a lot of people now right now is telling me what why are these shots dangerous during pregnancy?
Dr. Nathan Riley 35:22
I don't think that they're resulting in a healthier immune response. So it's not so much that I don't believe that vaccine that the technology is beautiful and elegant and important. I think it's really awesome that we have this idea that what we're injecting is not just promoting an immune response against scary pertussis or whatever else. It's also putting in a bunch of toxic stuff into a pregnant woman. And it's, I think, perpetuating fear, which is going to do you no good as you approach pregnancy or childbirth.
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 35:55
Right. But if you get this shot, um, if, again, devil's advocate, if the mom is getting the shot, why would it affect the baby?
Dr. Nathan Riley 36:05
Why would because everything that mom is being exposed to is going to the baby. So when we when I talk about what type of food you're eating, it's the same conversation as what's going into your body through injectables. You could make the same argument around variety of other injectable things like Vitamin K is a great example that's in the baby, of course. But what are we really trying to do with this? And is the benefit outweighing the harm? I don't really think that we don't get to that one yet. We
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 36:32
have that one up coming. Okay. So whatever you're
Dr. Nathan Riley 36:35
putting into the Mama's going to the baby and these babies through, you could look at it through epigenetics, you could look at it through a variety of other factors. Whatever is going into your body, whether it's injected or it's consumed orally or put on your skin, or it's in your cookware or whatever else, it's going to the baby gotta treat our babies our wounds like temples, and that's just that,
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 36:55
it's that's just that. No, you're right. Okay. Unbox kids get sick. Anyway, right of not vaccinating is because vaccines make kids sick, then what's the point, especially when vaccines protect against so many deadly diseases as an OBGYN, here's an opportunity as soon as your baby is born to do the vitamin K shot to do hep B. These are all things that can keep these children from dying and the vitamin K shot Come on, you don't want your baby to bleed to death. So why are you as an OBGYN not recommending those things? Don't you feel like that's unsafe?
Dr. Nathan Riley 37:37
I am first and foremost a pretty analytical guy. And when I consider the if we're going to go down the path of I think Vitamin K is a really great example. Because now this is super universal. And I told I talked to Dr. Paul about my experience residency about hepatitis B, and then later looking at the Safety Data myself and being like, Oh, my God, I was right. That's so validating. And I can't believe that we're doing this universally. Vitamin K is a great example. It's not technically a vaccine, but it is injected into the baby. And there's a number of issues there. So the risk of hemolytic disease of the newborn in the developed world, like rich countries, like the United States is somewhere in the range of nine and 100,000, it is extremely low. So if we're promoting the idea that the baby can't stop from bleeding inside the brain without this injectable thing, we have to then consider the harms. What is the harm moments after the baby comes out of the uterus, it's in a it's already in a cacophony of noise in lights, and just it's a scary place, a lot of people wearing masks now and this little baby was just in this warm amniotic universe. And now you're going to inflict pain in the heel. All because there's a risk of nine and 100,000. So my analytical mind says listen to the person who's coming to me to help, the risk of this bad thing happening is 900,000, we can decrease that risk by injecting your baby with this button, potentially there's a harm there because we're telling the baby as soon as they arrive earthside that there's it's an unsafe place. It's a painful place to be or side. So I don't even really care about the potential benefits because the benefit here is extremely small. So even from an analytical standpoint, our risk is very low of this bad thing happening. So the benefit is very low of the presumed whatever mechanism of action of vitamin K. And there's a whole bunch of other things they're very hard to measure, but that we know are important because we listen to women, we listen to their partners, we listen to the babies. And if it's not, if there's not a great benefit, then I need better evidence. The burden of evidence, I think is on those people who want to deviate from nature and there's nothing natural about shooting synthetic vitamin K into a baby's foot.
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 39:47
Right. What do you think I'm gonna ask you just because it is something that we've we have recommended in the past and that's the drops the vitamin, vitamin K and Vitamin K drops And yeah, orally if it was, I think the thing that's risky for these moms is that they're told, especially with a C section baby man, there's so risk the babies are being they could have bleeding because of the how violent the birth is are coming down the birth canal and all the different things that could cause the bleeding. So it puts again a state of fear and a mom that Yeah, especially with a C section baby, that that could that could be an issue. And so the drops is this way of saying, okay, maybe if there's an issue, then that's there, do you support drops? Or do you say no vitamin K at all?
Dr. Nathan Riley 40:38
I don't have any. So my approach is not to say do this or don't do this. It's to say, Hey, listen, here is what we know from the data. I am not opposed to people wanting to get Vitamin K, as long as they're informed the drops are an alternative. We did that for our first we did not do anything for a second. But what I will also say is that again, back to what I said before, do you think it's impossible to conceive of a healthy diet in a pre pregnancy and during pregnancy, this woman eating vitamin K to rich foods, that it's not going to somehow be translated into a baby that has healthy blood and healthy clotting. Of course, not the same go. This is a fat soluble vitamin. The same goes for breastfeeding. If you have a natural birth, you're eating nutritious foods. And by the way, those would be bone broth, organ meats, fermented cod liver oil, smoked oysters, eggs, if you're taking those five foods, you are going to have absolutely zero issues related to micronutrient deficiencies in glad no one
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 41:38
told me about those foods when I was pregnant. I probably could have done it. But I would have thrown up every time after I'm just kidding.
Unknown Speaker 41:44
I agree. It's an acquired taste.
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 41:48
And again, there's so many things that we do we want to have healthy babies. So I'm glad you said those things. Here's another one. I heard you say Dr. Nathan that your second child that's unvaccinated and had no nothing interrupted to that precious little body actually is getting more sick more often than your first child who had vaccinations. So if that's the point, should you have vaccinated your child then? And maybe that's because your wife didn't get any shots during her pregnancy? Is that why?
Dr. Nathan Riley 42:19
No Dr. Pol actually helped me with this one I had asked him about this before the recording and he was like your toddler is going to preschool in and out and about and bringing home all the germs in order for the firt the second little one now to just be exposed to more things at a more rapid rate. And I'll add that, so we were never leaving the house. And now our little one is out and about and just getting exposed to a lot more. So I actually feel very grateful that Paul told me that because now I'm like, great, she's gonna have a super immune system. When he or she's healthy. She's fine. It's just, she's just been more sniffles than I expected. But I told him I was like, man, is this like, it seems counterintuitive? He was like, no, like, it's just your baby's getting exposed to more things. Okay, no problem.
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 43:00
We're finding is good just simply to because and I always tell ask parents when they say that with their toddlers that did or kids who did get vaccinated, they can they get sicker when they're sick, and theirs will last longer. And part of it is not having that immune system that builds up. So what you'll notice is when your second baby is a toddler, they probably won't have some of those same illnesses. Yeah, yeah. That's funny that you even Okay, so I'm done playing devil's advocate. Here we go. If you could go back knowing what you know now, what would you do differently regarding education and career? Would you be a midwife? No,
Dr. Nathan Riley 43:41
I'd be like, I'd be in the forest service or something. I'd be like a conservation myself in a space now where I feel obligated to continue doing what I'm doing. But I had no idea that I was going to be so indoctrinated. Like I thought that this was the ultimate foray into the curiosities of the medical sciences. And I've been very much forced pigeon holed in to do it this way or else and I told Dr. Paul when he was on my podcast recently, like I've been challenging kid probably since kindergarten. In fact, they wanted to hold me back in kindergarten because I didn't want to do what the other kids were doing and they thought it was slow. And I was just like, This is too easy. I need to do something else. I've been a problem child I think for most of my life.
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 44:25
I wonder if that's why my sister was held back I got the skip kindergarten I guess it's because I was sweet. I wasn't. So honestly, would you if you could do it again and again, have that knowledge would you completely not do a medical career?
Dr. Nathan Riley 44:41
It's hard to say that I say everything I said there's a little tongue in cheek i i feel like I'm doing so much good in the world now that I've actually changed my tone when med students or or pre med students reach out and they're asking me about my careers and whatnot. I've spoken at high school career fairs and whatnot. I actually don't tell people to not go into medicine. I just hope that people who do go into medicine are able to maintain their identity. And their sense of curiosity, which has really helped me flourish as a man, as a father, as a husband, as a physician, if I were told that the only way you could do to be an OBGYN is to work in the system that is perpetuating so much obstetric violence and whatnot. If that were the only way forward, then I would say, hell no, this was not for me. But I have found my way. And that's all fine, I wouldn't take it back. Now I'm pretty happy.
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 45:30
That leads us into what's the best part of being a dad, are you.
Dr. Nathan Riley 45:37
There are very few surprises. Whenever you get to be an adult, when you're a child, you're guided by your impulses. And then when you become an adult, you're guided by your habits. And the whole story of being an adult is trying to develop good habits to release bad habits. So when you have little kids you get, you start to see the world a new one. I know it's cliche, but to be like, inspired again by a bumblebee is actually I think what most of us adults are lacking. It's that play, it's that curiosity and whatnot that was beat out of us through our education, through our careers and all of that. The best part about being a father, too, is to be able to reflect every single day on the amount of love that these little girls feel for me, like I go away on trips, for births or for whatever. And I come back, and they are like, We're inseparable. And that just reminds you to just embrace this present moment right now. And that is like the most the ultimate sort of leveling up. I think when you're an adult, like there's very little new stuff that comes your way, but you get to see the world again, through child's eyes. And that keeps you young, it keeps you optimistic. I'm way more optimistic now. Now that I have kids. And that's awesome. Yeah, what else? What other choice? Do I have? I Oh,
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 46:51
you have plenty of choices. But that's a good one darlin. So would you say, then the next question was, what are you best at as a dad? Do you think that's what it is that you're aware of all these things now, that because of what the world has presented, that allows you to be a better dad, because you can be present with your children in the moment that they're in? Because that's what's difficult for most parents.
Dr. Nathan Riley 47:16
I think I think the best attribute that I bring to parenting is that whatever it is that they want to do, I want that for them. Because that's what I wanted for my whole life. And I didn't always get that DD. I didn't ever have people, I didn't always have people saying, hey, the way that you are is awesome. And I get to be that for them. So it's a little bit of a projection from my own traumas and whatnot, I can actually start to correct that in my own behaviors for their betterment. And I know that the reason that we're so close is because I just love the fact that they're doing that thing. It's not what I would do, but it's what they're doing. And I can love them through that. And that is probably why I'm doing such a good job. At least I think I am I don't know,
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 47:58
Oh, you are and same thing. So then that's also the same thing is What do you think that you're best at which I've already heard, but if you could sum it up as being a doctor, what you're doing and working with midwives and all that, that excites me, that is just incredible. So what do you feel is your best attribute that you offer as a doctor?
Dr. Nathan Riley 48:20
When we're like Dr. Paul and I, when we were both any doctor goes through residency years nourished and nurtured to be a part of this bigger system. And I think that what I wasn't incentivized to do was to listen to people, and I find people fascinating. I find a whole human experience to be just this ultimate curiosity. And coming into residency, I had this characterization of midwives as being old, dirty, lazy, stupid, whatever. And then when you actually can just say, but what if that's not true? I always like to look at things from a different perspective, the opposite person's point of view, like what if what I'm being told is not true. As soon as you can do that, it opens up a world of possibilities for you to care for people. So in the, through the lens of just being curious and being willing to listen and see things from another person's point of view. It helps me understand that midwives do this so well. And then furthermore, when I work with midwives, when I work with new clients, just being able to try to empathize and to see a situation from their point of view is has made me such a great physician, a great caretaker, just being present and being willing to see that this person has a whole story that precedes them. They have a whole future ahead. Where do I fit in there? I'm not the captain of this ship. How can I serve this person? Oh
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 49:40
my god. So you just said this. You just said something and I want to point it out because I don't know if you realize this because you're a lot younger than I am. We have to like with pediatricians whenever I would get bullied and whenever doc and I do our thing. I feel like they forget that. That they don't come home with us. They're not our child right? but they are not allowed to make the decisions for us. So you're saying that about the birth experience and for these women who are going through these things, it's about them. It's what they want their work. So when you say that you're not the captain of the ship, and the pediatrician is not the captain of my child ship. So I love that you said that, and that is what makes you great. So I actually had a tough time. But I have a couple things I have, I want to really get to one of them's really important. I work with infants when they're first born, babies are referred to me Doc's been doing that for years. So my body work has to do my pediatric bodywork has to do with that, that birth can be traumatic. I have noticed in my practice, that the most traumatic things to babies with the spine is curved, all those different things. C section is the worse. Yeah. What's funny to me is when there's an emergency birth, that wasn't even planned, where there was no midwife or nothing, that in a home, those babies seem to do the best, the and even in hospital births, long birth, short bursts, certain things affect that baby's body, and colic and all the different issues that we think children have. I think it's birth trauma. Totally. You see the difference in that when you're at these home births and the whole midwife thing? What do you think's the biggest difference? Is it just the light? Is it? What are they doing at home, tell these families who think that home births on safe, tell them why home is better? That
Dr. Nathan Riley 51:28
is a great question. You didn't even set me up for this one. And I have been thoughtful about this so much over the past couple of months, actually. So I've started studying polyvagal theory, which is really this theory that it's not just sympathetic versus parasympathetic, you obviously know what this is about, oh,
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 51:43
I'm a body worker. So yeah, so without knowing
Dr. Nathan Riley 51:47
what some of this stuff seems, it seems, I don't know, it seems to be confronting to what we understand about the nervous system. But if you even look at SIDS, preterm babies now have a higher chance of dying suddenly, in their early years or months of life. I hadn't understood that until I started studying polyvagal. But what's I think most important is even if don't have a preterm baby, the environment outside of the uterus in those weeks to months, up to six months, let's say, after the birth, is a period during which that ventral vagal the I Am, the real full embodiment of the nervous system is starting to be entrained. And you can't do that without co regulation with your mother. When babies are stuck away in the NICU and they're not being held, they're not being there's no mother ease, there's no laying on your bare chest and feeling the pulse and that CO regulation is so critical to to the development of your baby's nervous system into their lifelong health. If you contrast the experience in the home where the baby is coming out, the naked little piglet is covered in goo and is wrapped up and mom is smelling you and she and the baby smelling the mom. And she's speaking soft, whispering loving, caring words and low You're so sweet. Look at your little fingers like all of that for the next six months, helps to develop the baby's nervous systems so that we don't have a sudden collapse in the autonomic drive to stay alive. If, in contrast, that's the home environment, there's no bright lights, there's no loud noises. It's just calm and quiet. And your baby's hearing your thud on your chest, maybe even next to you in bed, like the breastfeeding all of that. Contrast that with the bright lights, they distractions, the sharp needles, that let's put you all a warmer with the bright lights and get you dried off and do all this exams and all this stuff. If you contrast those two experiences, one is in favor of CO regulation, which is actually in support of a healthy philosophy of little human that just came aside. The other is completely detracting from that entire experience. So that little that contrast alone should be enough for us to say the vast majority of births should be taking place in in an environment that looks more like the home environment. Yeah, versus the crazy. That happens in an operating room for 40% of births in the United States. Oh, we can. Sorry. I'm Custer. Sorry, guys.
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 54:19
Yeah. Oh, you have no idea how much I cast. But I've been told I can't on our show. And we edit. So Peter can take out a lot of this. But thank you for saying that you and I are going to have to do another interview on this because that is my work. And it's so important. And I go against what a lot of pediatricians say about having your baby on a firm surface and don't put them in bed with you and don't use something to support if they have toward all those freaking things. I have one more question for you. Dr. Nathan, you being an OBGYN and you said I would like to know about both of your birth your children's birth. So you said the second one was born at home with you? Is it just you or did you have a midwife? Good question.
Dr. Nathan Riley 54:56
Very good question, didi. When we went into our first let me start by saying that when we had our first baby, my wife was very healthy uncomplicated pregnancy, but she really wanted to have the baby in the hospital. And it was right before COVID happened. And it's just that was that's what she wanted. I'm always supportive wherever want, somebody feels called to have their baby. And and we had an OBGYN there and it was quiet room. We did our best with that. And Stephanie didn't feel great about the experience. So later, we're in middle of COVID we have our second baby. Now we're going to do it at home. There was the question of do we need to hire anybody because it is expensive. It was like $4,500 out of pocket and I just been fired for taking off my mask during COVID and taking caring for a dying old guy. And so we lost her health insurance. So it was like man, do we somebody can we afford it? Like we just I just lost my income, what are we going to do. And at the end of the day, Stephanie in both pregnancies said, I really want for the first time in your life, for you to just show up as my partner and not be the doctor and not be the guy here to solve problem or save the day. So it actually afforded me the opportunity to step out of the OBGYN shoes and just to be the most conscious husband and soon to be father again, in our second birth. So we did have a midwife there. She brought in midwife, student and she brought a doctor in the community who's getting into homebirth as well. They were all there, but we were doing a type of breathwork called effigy. breathwork. And we started that started that and now it's like a somatic breathwork and crampy and whatnot. But Stephanie and I were laying on the bed the tub was set up our breathwork friend Sara Termoli came and did the breath with us an hour after Stephanie's waters open so an hour into actual labor and 46 minutes into the hour long breasts and the baby was out on her chest like asleep. So yeah,
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 56:44
I know that works.
Dr. Nathan Riley 56:45
Yeah, it works. That
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 56:47
is such a powerful way to have a baby.
Dr. Nathan Riley 56:50
Absolutely. So we had this team there but they didn't have to do anything. It was literally like okay, and had my hands not been cramped up I probably would have caught the baby but I could not use them
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 57:00
so that's so I have to ask just the funny part of it it was Where are you how soon after? Did you go oh my god we didn't even need all these people stuff we could have just done this breathing and having our baby now you've cost me all this money but an hour afterwards
Dr. Nathan Riley 57:15
I was like god darn it we
Unknown Speaker 57:16
could have just done it my wife not how you're gonna have your third fourth and fifth baby just breathing on the bed.
Dr. Nathan Riley 57:22
No we're done having babies present having more join the Clippers I joined clippers we are on a boy I wouldn't mind a boy but I'm not like let's try for another because you know what's gonna happen DD we're gonna you'll
Unknown Speaker 57:37
have to you'll actually have girls
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 57:41
in the back, right? Shoot they want to do they wanted a girl they had two more boys. crack me up. Anyway. So yeah, thanks for I think that's important. We always wonder that for a pediatrician. Are you your own kids pediatrician or how? Yeah, so I love that you were there. And you brought up a very good point and that the fathers are very important. So I've been a birth doula and I call it professional labor support for years doing massage through. And I always encourage the dads always seem to be the most grateful about me being there because it assisted them and being the most present they could be. I don't ever think that a doula or anyone should take over the role of the father because this birth, like you said, it's these two people together making this baby happen. Bring this baby into the world. So I love that you you did that. So it's like a great opportunity.
Dr. Nathan Riley 58:31
Like I don't want to be that it'd be a doctor to everybody. I can be a dad for this one. That's yeah,
DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT 58:36
that's your role. So yeah, I think that's incredible. So thank you again for answering my questions. And yeah, you and I'll have to do our own show sometime.
Dr. Paul 58:53
I look forward to running together with the wind at our backs, revealing the science that gives clarity in our world that's full of propaganda and misinformation. Visit our website, doctors and science.com Sign up. Donate if you can. Your support makes a difference. And let's make this the weekly show the world has been waiting for. Thanks for watching. I'm Dr. Paul.
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