​Dr. Paul  0:06  
Welcome to with the wind science revealed. I have Dr. Alan Palmer back for today's show. He's the author of 1200 studies on vaccines. And we're doing a deep dive into COVID. What happened, the documentation and how we can avoid this happening again, enjoy the show.

Dr. Paul, coming to you from the heart, my topic for today is getting out of your own way. And I'm gonna use myself as an example. So for a few years now, I've known there was a book I needed to write. But I just couldn't make it happen. You see the last two big books that I wrote, I was sitting in Maui in this particular spot, looking out over the ocean. And that's when I got my inspiration. And I needed that same feeling. At least that was the excuse I gave myself. Well, guess what? I found an ocean. I live in Oregon, it's just an hour away. And with some support, I was able to sit there have that ocean experience for inspiration, and knockout a rough draft of my next book. I think we just have to get out of our own way sometimes to make the important things happen. So from my heart to everybody out there, remember this if you have faith, and just put one foot in front of the other, and follow the direction towards what you're meant to do your purpose. You can get it done.

Welcome, Dr. Alan Palmer, it's so great to have you back on the show with the winds.

Dr. Alan Palmer  1:48  
Good morning. Thanks for having me again. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Paul  1:52  
You are even a chiropractor. For those who don't know you for over 30 years. I was reading some of your background. Oh my gosh, doctor for the Arizona Coyotes National Hockey League, and then the Arizona Diamondbacks Major League Baseball team and the San Francisco Giants. I know you're very well versed in functional medicine, complementary alternative medicine. You're a great educator, I was first excited of just because you had put together this massive compilation of all these studies that dealt with childhood vaccines and vaccine risks, benefits, injuries, what have you, which is what we talked about last time. But now we're going to delve into COVID. Tell me Look, there's a good reason. So our listeners to know, tell me about your journey and writing on COVID and the chronology. And you've got a book coming out what got you into this. Tell us more about it?

Dr. Alan Palmer  2:42  
Certainly. So when the pandemics yet I started looking at some of the data coming in from different countries. One of the first ones was Italy, of course. And I started looking at who was really impacted by the virus, and it was very elderly. And typically they have two or more comorbidities, most of them have three or four serious comorbidities. I noticed from that data that young people weren't really affected. And so when I saw the public health response, to be just basically a one size fits all response. And it was just overwhelmingly, contrary to what I was seeing, from some of the stories that were coming out some of the data and results from around the world. I started really questioning the veracity of their response to this virus and what was going on. And then of course, seeing the suppression of early treatment meds and all these different things, I decided to start writing a newsletter starting in May of 2020. I started writing a monthly newsletter where I would basically as like an as an investigative reporter, I went and I looked at all the different studies and the data and the research that was coming out on the virus on treatments on various aspects of it on the infection fatality rates. And I started putting together this newsletter every month, and he grew and grew. And so I just released my 40th monthly newsletter. I never thought he would still be doing this three and a half years plus later. But I got into that journey. And as we went along, and as they started talking about producing the vaccines and the vaccines began to be produced and rolled out. I started covering all of that in my monthly newsletter. So every single month, I have a classical story in your newsletters. Yeah. So what happened was that every single month, I have segments in there about all the latest news and the data and the science about the vaccines. And I started accumulating that into a document and currently that document is about 2000 pages long. And I do call it a chronology of the COVID-19 vaccines From their inception, critical review from their inceptions to the epic failure. And so I have this living document if you will, that is this chronology or story or history of the whole COVID 19 vaccines saga that I have released now on my website. And so I know that's a little bit about what we're going to talk about today, which was challenging because there is so much in there. There's so much to cover, that hopefully we can distill it down into some interesting points for the viewers and talk about a little bit more.

Dr. Paul  5:20  
Yeah, now, and some of our viewers are exhausted with COVID. Right. But the thing is, it hasn't gone away. And so we have to stay vigilant. Just today, as we're interviewing, I know that the CDC hcip committee is meeting to probably rubber stamp approval of the latest booster that they'll then roll out probably in a day or two. But folks, yeah, you can go to wellness doc.com. And that's where your all your information is. But why do you think or why do you feel that this vaccine only option? was the only thing they put on the table? Right from the beginning? What was that all about?

Dr. Alan Palmer  5:55  
One of the things that really stuck out to me and was obvious was and let me share a slide with you here. If I may. Yeah, please do. Yeah. So this is, this is a document that was sent out that was put out by the National Vital Statistics System NCHS. And they basically, this was March 24 2020. So this is where they told doctors how they should begin to write the death certificates, or COVID-19. And this changed a, a system or a procedure that had been in place for my understanding is 17 years for coding for death. And so they all of a sudden, they come out with this completely new way of coding for COVID-19 decimal, just because that's hard to read. I'm going to I'm going to just click down here. And so if you can see this section here, it says, Will COVID-19 be the underlying clause? It says the underlying clause depends on what and where conditions are reported on the death certificate. However, the rules for coding and selection of the underlying clause of death are expected to result in COVID-19 being the underlying clause more often than not. So yeah, right out of the gates, they decided, if yours that they that they would roll it out so that the the COVID-19 diagnosis would be more often than not the diagnosis. And yeah, so that was problematic to begin with. Yeah. And then later down in the document, they also show that what happens if the terms reported on the death strip get indicate uncertainty. It says if the death certificate reports terms, such as probable COVID-19, or likely COVID-19, these terms would be assigned the new ICD code. In other words, that would be the cause of death, whether even if it was uncertain, and then this sentence is very interesting in there it says, it is not likely that in C H. S will follow up on these cases. Okay, so you really don't have to worry about as

Dr. Paul  7:56  
you can call it COVID, even when it might not be in there won't be any follow up.

Dr. Alan Palmer  8:00  
Yeah. What are you not worried about is checking your work? Wow.

Dr. Paul  8:04  
So right from the get go, they set the stage for there to be a massive recategorize thing of deaths from everything else that was causing death to that call it COVID?

Dr. Alan Palmer  8:17  
Yes, absolutely. And then we had the PCR debacle. I call it the PCR testing debacle. But PCR test was never designed to be a diagnostic test. And as a physician, a diagnosis can only be determined. After you have an exam with a patient, you take a history, you look at their their different factors. And regarding their health, you do some lab work, you check several different things out symptomatology, all these different things to create a diagnosis. But PCR became the diagnostic criteria. And even Michael Mina, who is a Harvard trained and Harvard, professor in epidemiology, infectious diseases and so forth, said that he believed that the PCR tests were about 70% false positives. And so even Kary Mullis, the inventor of the test, said that you can derive anything from a PCR test because as you amplify it more and more through what's called the cycle thresholds. Eventually, you're going to find a molecule in there that matches what you're looking for, essentially, is what Kary Mullis said. And so the CDC had labs testing for the virus at 40 to 45 cycle thresholds. And essentially, when I go back and I shared in my monthly newsletter, some of the different studies from like the clinic, Journal of infectious clinical diseases, and so forth, you know, they found that you cannot even culture the virus over about 25 to 27 cycles. And these labs were reimposing and continuing to amplify. So so many people were out there walking around, well, actually, once they were found to be positive, they were quarantined initially for two weeks. Most of the time those people never could have spread the disease anyway. So I think that was another thing that really He really had the alarm bells going off for me. And then of course, it was the suppression of the early treatment mats. And I mentioned that earlier

Dr. Paul  10:07  
than when this thing rolled out. This was a case Demick. Right? And they were just positive PCRs meant you had COVID. And look at all the COVID cases, the more you tested, the more aces you had, which yes, yeah, when there are false positives, and there's a high rate of false positivity, that created the fear, right. And I think they needed the fear, to get the population to cooperate with their plans

Dr. Alan Palmer  10:32  
to lose weight. And so that those three things really it was the changing of the death certificates to ramp up the death numbers that stoke fear. Then the PCR testing ramped up the case numbers that Stokes the ear, and then eliminating any of the options for early treatment medications. And so we're in this whole thing about ivermectin being horse paste, and they have FDA tweeting, come on, folks, you're not a horse. It's ridiculous. I, there's just so many, there's hundreds and hundreds of studies now showing strong efficacy. And if I could just share a couple little slides really quick here. Because I just, I would just like to make that point that when you look at the studies, and many of these were coming out early on to so they absolutely knew that it was efficacious. In fact, after SARS, one Chloroquine, like hydroxychloroquine, Chloroquine was one of the things that they tested and found to be effective. So Anthony Fauci knew because he NIH was involved with some of that research, they knew that hydroxychloroquine was going to be effective. So if you look at this, ordered nine studies or around the world from 58 different countries, and when you look at the graph on the right hand side, anything left those little diamonds, anything left at that vertical Gray, vertical lines, savers, hydroxychloroquine. So we're looking at mortality and hospital, hospitalization, early late treatment, everything, you can see that everything is to the left of that gray line, nothing favors the control. Right that. And so I want to just show you real quick, the ivermectin one because it's very much the same story. Yet, it was strongly in favor of the positivity for ivermectin, same thing. Look at this, look at the results there. Wow. 85% for prophylaxis 62%. For early treatment, 41%. Just for late treatment, again, very strong evidence that showed that these early treatment drugs would have tipped people out of the hospitals and there's your next wave of fear mongering is because they didn't allow early treatment, the hospitalization rates were spiking, right because people they were just told to go home and sequester let the virus incubate. And by the time they got to the hospital, they were in more of an advanced stage in the disease, whereas they could have been treated early, kept those hospitalization rates down, and once again, kept the fear at a lower level. So all of these things to your point, were in my opinion, they were caused, they are determined or a part of the scheme, if you will, to get people to accept the vaccine when it came out.

Dr. Paul  13:05  
Yeah, the tragedy was so many people lost their lives unnecessarily because ivermectin works incredible for this particular virus. So just people I know of people personally who were on their way to the ER, and were able to give their hands on some ivermectin and turn the car around by the next day, they were fine. And they were having oxygenation problems where they would have been put in the intensive care unit and probably not made it had they gone on to the hospital. But the other tragedy here is you showed those two slides on the hydroxychloroquine in the ivermectin clearly effective, that should have nullified the ability to have an emergency use authorization for the vaccine, because you can only have emergency use if there's no other treatments

Dr. Alan Palmer  13:51  
available. Absolutely, absolutely. Great point. And I believe that is the main reason they suppressed any early treatments. Yeah.

Dr. Paul  13:59  
So what we've seen here, it feels like a crime.

Dr. Alan Palmer  14:03  
Yeah, it does. It's just I'd like to just pull it up if I can just the most current VAERS reports. So looking at

Dr. Paul  14:11  
adverse event reports. Let's talk about that data. Yeah. How do you feel about the accuracy of these numbers?

Dr. Alan Palmer  14:18  
I think if anything, these numbers would be underreported for several reasons. One of the main reasons is it's been shown that the various system is severely underreported. And so in between 2007 and 2010, the CDC health and human services they commissioned Harvard Medical School through HMO on the east coast there in Massachusetts called Harvard Pilgrim health to track all the vaccine reactions very carefully for three years. And at the end in that report, they went back and they summarize that less than 1% of the vaccine adverse reactions or events were ever recorded in theirs And so that showed that if you're only capturing 1% There no, let's say these numbers you're looking at right there. Let's say we only let's say we chose not 1%. Let's say we only captured 10%. We looked at those astronomical numbers there, in the other reason I believe that they're underreported is there was so much pressure on doctors to not report reactions, because it would be discouraging people from taking the vaccine and in the medical community's mind based on the CDC recommendations and the FDA, that they didn't want to promote vaccine hesitancy. So I think a lot of reactions went unreported. The vast majority, if you look at the the European Union's reporting of adverse reactions, the vast majority of reactions are reported by physicians, it was about 60%. And a lot of times doctors, plus it's very cumbersome Dockage to report a vaccine adverse event, as a physician, you gotta probably take 30 to maybe 45 minutes or more, to sit down and go through the lengthy process of doing that in an in busy physicians life to do it's very difficult to do that. And in patients are discouraged to believe that their symptoms could have been caused by the vaccine for all these different reasons that I've just mentioned. So I really think that these numbers are just a small percentage of the true casualty count, when the system

Dr. Paul  16:23  
and we've seen through that there's reporting, there are more COVID related deaths, whatever metric you pick, then all other vaccines combined since 1990, when they started the various program, 30 years of data, put all the vaccines combined, just this one shot, I don't even like to call it a vaccine has created more deaths more harm than all of them combined.

Dr. Alan Palmer  16:47  
Yes. nauseous?

Dr. Paul  16:48  
What other metrics, by the way, have you looked at because I'd be curious to know what's been the experience in other countries.

Dr. Alan Palmer  16:54  
Let's let me just rewind for a second here to the V safe system, the CDC zone V safe system that they created with an app, people who got the vaccine download onto their phone, and then they can self report vaccine injuries into the app. And with just over 10 million reports, the rate of serious adverse reactions was about 8%. And serious, meaning they needed go for medical help. So even in their own system. And then of course, once all that was being discovered, and um, part of this is that, due to lawsuits by the informed consent Action Network, the a re they forced them to reveal this data. So they weren't letting this data out willingly, they had to be forced to reveal this data. But once the data was out and everything, then they stopped taking these out, calculating Yeah, they stopped calculating the house. And some of the other things we could look at here. Let me just share with you some on the disability front. This is from Edward Douds. website. And if your viewers aren't following Edward doubt, I would recommend you do that they have a website where they've been really looking at the different disability rates and so forth around the world. And since the shot has occurred, if you look down at the bottom of that graph to the far right there, you can see January 4, is right, where we really start to see these disability rates going up. So this is employed people 16 to 64 with recording a disability and this goes all the way back to 2008. It might be a little difficult for the viewers to see. But this goes back all the way to 2008. Yeah,

Dr. Paul  18:33  
yeah. And I think the important thing there is in 2020, when we had the Wuhan strain, and then the Delta the worst, deadliest strains of this SARS cov. Two virus, you don't see the disability spike up yet only after the shots get introduced in 2021.

Dr. Alan Palmer  18:49  
Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. So here, here's another one, maybe we can share too, that will help underscore this point. And another thing is following the excess deaths around the world, excess deaths in all of the highly vaccinated countries are running somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 to 30%, for the most part, sometimes higher. And this is a chart by he calls himself as the ethical skeptic. And I've been following him on Twitter and this person is really on top of things. But what he does is he looks at the different coding the different coding it from the government and how things are how desperate code and so forth. So this is ages zero or birth to 24. So this is very young people. And if you look at 2018 and 2019, and even through the pandemic year, the excess deaths were really pretty level there. But right about within the first quarter or so of 2021 you can see a trajectory upward and again, even in young people for which the virus was a was very mild and not severe and typically not was high morbidity or mortality. You can see once the vaccine were rolled out the young people, how these excess deaths are continuing to escalate all the way to present day and look the worst the highest point, hobbled probably in recorded history at 44.8%. This is the thing that frustrates me, Doc is theirs. Do you hear any kind of discussion, public discussion by our health agencies about these excess deaths with those kinds of rates, that there would be a major and they everything else should grinds to a halt? And we should figure out what's causing these excess deaths. And the fact that they're not tilt that speaks volumes, right.

Dr. Paul  20:39  
I remember reading one report the insurance companies, right, they'll do their actuarial and I remember reading that if you have a 10% year to year increase, that is a one and 200 year event. Yes locking 30 40% unheard of. There is so much harm being created by these shots. It's a dumb question. But what's going on? Why is how's the CDC doing with regards to giving us accurate information and statistics?

Dr. Alan Palmer  21:08  
It's interesting, because as I've been following this over the course of time, it seems that it's very difficult for us to find accurate information from our government, at least compared to several other governments in the world. The United Kingdom has been quite transparent with their vaccine data, they were already showing through their surveillance reports they were already showing as of April in May of 2021. So about five months after the rollout, that the vaccine efficacy was dropping significantly. So they they were very out front about it. At the same time in the United States. Here. Everything that was being pushed through the media was saying that the vaccine has continued to be protective. And so they held on to that narrative forever. Even much longer than evidence now shows from the disclosed emails from the email tranches that once again, the informed consent Action Network was able to obtain that the CDC knew that the vaccines did not stop infection or transmission far before they related to the public. In fact, all the mandates in the fall of 2021 came after evidence shows that they knew this was a fact yet they continued to push those mandates. And maybe I heard again, and they're about to do it again. And maybe I'll just show you a graph here that exemplifies one of the things that really came out pretty early on. Now, this is the end of 2021. This is from the UK. And this shows weeks 49 through 52. So December of 2021, so about a year after the vaccines rolled out, and as you can see for the different age groups along the bottom, and it's a little bit distorted, because I had to magnify this to be for your viewers to be able to see it pretty well. But it's about 123% Negative efficacy. So originally, they sold vaccines as 94%. Effective that would that line would be way up 100%, right. So you can see within the course of a year for all these age groups, how how far that vaccine effect, effectiveness had dropped. Now negative of effectiveness actually means that you're more likely to get infected, much more likely. And that's what we've seen as people have gotten more and more boosters, is that they're actually more likely to be infected, not less likely. And so here's another one that

Dr. Paul  23:35  
just shows sharing that information, right? There's still there's their narrative is still that it's this is a disease of the advanced, which is the

Dr. Alan Palmer  23:42  
Yes, absolutely. And and after the third booster came out over in the UK, you can see how this negative efficacy dropped even further for some groups. And this is within the first part of February 2022. So not much longer. Look at that 40 to 49% age group or 4049 year age group, minus 171.51%. These are the kinds of statistics we've been seeing out of certain countries. Israel has been pretty good on their stats. I would love to share one there if I

Dr. Paul  24:14  
could. Oh, please do. Yeah, I think it's so important for people to see data that's been suppressed for us the countries that are actually doing a better job of getting the data out there. We need to see it.

Dr. Alan Palmer  24:26  
Yes, and I think this is a pretty good one. This shows deaths in Israel again in young people from birth to 19. From 2017 to 2021. So you can see the red color is 2017 on the left of each of these months, and then 2021 is the blue. Reason I think it's important on this point is to when you seek and can see as of March 2021. That blue line were a hit spikes up to 80 there that is after young people in Israel started to get the vaccines and then you look at April May In June, June, this was an incomplete month at the point that the data was released. But you can see a very unusual trend here with young people dying, once again as compared to all of the other years prior at a much higher rate as after the vaccine rollout. Yeah. Wow. I mean

Dr. Paul  25:23  
that. So if you're a thinking person, and you see this information, the data you showed from Britain, and this other one now, from Israel, and, of course, our CDC and public health departments, and your doctor is likely to tell you, Oh, you should probably consider the fall booster COVID, blah, blah, blah. What would you say to that?

Dr. Alan Palmer  25:45  
I think everyone has to do their own risk reward analysis, as I say, but there are many countries in Europe and so forth now that are not recommending any worse shots and people under 50, I think you need to consider all different things and make your own decision, I would never tell somebody what they should do. I've always taken the position that people should be allowed to see information on both sides of the argument and then make up their own decision. But certainly, for me, if it were me or my family, I think but you're in relatively good health. Once again, more shots, you get more likely, you're probably going to get infected, as the data shows clearly, that I believe that it's not a good idea to continue to push these shots. And then the other thing, and maybe I can share a slide that since we're on this topic here that I think is relevant. This slide right here is right off of the CDC website, and it looks at it's called the variant tracker, the vaccine that's coming out the booster that they're making the decision on right now is based on if you look at the highlighted spot, lower left there, that highlighted bar with red star, it's based on the XB b dot 1.5 variant. And if we look back in May, on the very left of that upper part of the graphs there, that is represented by that darker blue color, where I have bisected it with a red arrow, I've drawn that arrow through there. And you can see the prevalence of that variant in May, it was quite high. And so there's where they're developing a vaccine to be effective against. And you can see as it goes from June to July to August, the present day, right now. And you can see that in that bar on the lower left, that variant only represents about 3% of the infections that are out there right now. It's actually you can see other variants that have like the EEG dot five is 21.5%. That's the orange one at the top. So that one is becoming more predominant. So the shots are coming out at a time when that it's designed for a variant that isn't even really around anymore. It's almost on its way out. And since.

Dr. Paul  27:55  
So the vaccine I'm trying to remember you may know it's gonna have this X BBB 1.5. That's almost gone. And then I think, is it still are they still putting the Wuhan strain? That's completely gone?

Dr. Alan Palmer  28:06  
I don't know. 100%. I believe I have heard that they are doing that still. But I'm I don't want to speak. Yeah, on a turn. I'm not 100% Sure. But I do know that there been, they say 30 different mutations along the spike protein just between two of the more recent variants. And so there's been so many the viruses mutating so rapidly in comparison to the shots that are coming out that they're I believe that their effectiveness is going to be minimal, if anything at all.

Dr. Paul  28:36  
So yeah, it's like you're getting folks, if you're gonna go get this fall booster, you're getting a vaccine for a strain that's actually already gone.

Dr. Alan Palmer  28:45  
Yes, that essentially it's gone. When there are people like bandhan VandenBosch, who believes that the vaccine program when you're vaccinating in the middle of a pandemic has Riven, the the mutations in the virus is going to survive at any cost. By throwing vaccines in the mix, you're in the middle of a pandemic, it's forcing the virus to adapt at a much higher rate. Viruses will always in your familiar dock with viral evolution, they typically will evolve so that they will become more effective, but less lethal, less, less deadly. And that's what we've seen. But we've seen that the rate of mutations so fast, so we're never going to keep up with it with technology or with these gene therapy tools in this kind of circles all the way back to early treatment, right. circles back to things we've never heard from our public health agencies. Optimize your vitamin D levels, somewhere between 60 and 80. Keep it in that range, get tested and make sure you're in that range. take vitamin C take zinc, for signs of illness, take quercetin, zinc, selenium, vitamin C, all the different things that have been shown to be effective. In fact, in my newsletter every month, I've had a nutrient of the month for the last 14 months and I've covered things that have peer reviewed research are showing not only their effectiveness against the SARS cov two virus, which is the virus that causes COVID 19, but also other kinds of respiratory illnesses and viruses. So there are so many tools that people can have including exercise, and fresh air and good sleep and stress reduction, all these things that the Center for Disease Control and Prevention should be talking about, but they're not.

Dr. Paul  30:23  
They're not. So the CDC in their wisdom, or lack of it, I would say, added the COVID shot to the childhood immunization schedule starting at six months of age. And I am hearing local pediatric offices patting themselves on the back for having a high rate of vaccination against COVID for young children and infants, knowing what you've just presented here, and maybe you can speak a little about natural immunity and how and why it's superior. Therefore, why children have not needed this shot anyway. What do you have to say about what do we do for kids,

Dr. Alan Palmer  31:05  
children have compared to adults have a much stronger innate immune system, the innate immune system is like the first line of defense when our bodies are exposed to a pathogen. The innate immune system doesn't require previous recognition of a virus, like the adaptive immune system and antibodies and so forth. So this very strong innate immune system they produce interferon it much higher levels and adults. So they're very well suited in part of it a child's development of their immune system. I shouldn't even be talking about this doc, because this is your area of expertise. But I would love to share my viewpoints. Part of it is being exposed to germs when we had the lockdowns from COVID and everything was sterilized countertops, hand sanitizers, all these different things. They were kept away from other children. And from being exposed. I think that's one of the reasons we're seeing increased rates of viral infections and some viruses that really hadn't been very predominant in on the scene from for years or ever making a resurgence is the fact that children need this training, if you will, of their their innate or natural immune systems. And then I believe I shared a paper with you that I would love to get your take on doc, which is a recent paper, it was just published August 26. So less than a month in frontiers in immunology, where they talk about the vaccines, these COVID vaccine shots in children, it actually sabotages their innate immune system. And in this study, they found that children who got the COVID shots were more likely to get other kinds of respiratory and other kinds of bacterial and viral infections. So yeah, I would love to, I would love to just get your take on that.

Dr. Paul  32:50  
Thank you for bringing that up. That is a very important point, folks, if you're listening, if you have kids, if you're contemplating giving your child a COVID shot, it's not a vaccine, but whatever you want to call it, we now have a paper in the peer reviewed literature that's showing it will actually increase your child's risks everything else, other viruses, other bacteria. Now, it's interesting, that fits exactly with what I learned from my practice. When I published the data of comparing the vaccinated variably vaccinated kids to unvaccinated kids. The more vaccinated you are, the more infections you get, okay, and it's speaking to exactly what you were sharing about the natural innate immune system kids are, they're exercising their immune system all the time being exposed from the moment of birth, you're just being exposed to viruses, bacteria, you name it. And they're identifying self and non self. And this is dangerous. And this isn't and developing both arms of the immune system, really. But when you vaccinate, you're just pushing that adaptive that antibody response. And what that seems to do my data shows it this article shows that you're shifting the immune system to just focus on one thing, to the exclusion of everything else. And I think therein lies the harm. And I think he brought up a really good point also about all the over sanitation and so the distancing and the masking just, we should have done what Sweden did. They let their kids go to school with no masks throughout the whole thing. They might have paused for a month or something when they were trying to figure out what the heck was going on. But their public health officials wisely realized kids need to be exposed. And by doing that, those children and Sweden became, in a way the protective barrier, right? We were said this line where you've got to protect Grandma, you don't want to go till grandma, if we had let our kids get whatever was coming. They would have been protecting grandma because they couldn't infect grandma. They already got sick and have immunity.

Dr. Alan Palmer  34:55  
Absolutely, absolutely. Yes, I followed sweet and very close. slowly throughout the pandemic, I highlighted them with a lot of stories on the results of their, because they became the control group. So the world really, they're the only country that stuck to the original pandemic preparedness plan that the World Health Organization had happened. You know, that's another thing, we changed all of that just for COVID. And in this concept of giving a vaccine and causing someone to become more susceptible to other viruses is not anything new. Throughout my wealth 100 studies ebook, I've got a lot of studies in there and information about that, in one of the interesting studies came out, ironically enough, I believe it was published in January 2020, where the government commissioned a study in the military, and they followed military personnel who had gotten a flu shot. And they looked at the other kinds of viruses that those people got, as compared to the ones that did not get the flu shot. And the ones that got the flu shot, interestingly enough, had were infected, about 20, I believe, was about 24%, more likely to be infected by Corona viruses, which again, then ended up being what was rolled out just shortly thereafter, as as part of this pandemic. There's dad I got when my putting my newsletters to showing that countries that had very high flu rates, also looking at very high deaths in their elderly, from our flu shot rates per shot had very, very high deaths and their elderly from COVID to so many studies, going back years show this phenomenon of viral interference. And I would say yeah, with two parents who are considering having their children vaccinated, I would, if it were me and my kids, I can't speak to what you should do. But if it were me, I would push back against that with everything I have. Some of the data that came out of the UK, which was very revealing to is, is they found that the mortality rate for children was somewhere in about two per million. And the ones that did die typically did have, it's always tragic, but had comorbidities even Marty Makary, from Johns Hopkins University and his team looked at over 40,000 cases. And they found that they couldn't find a single healthy child that died from COVID. Within their study that they published in healthy children, they're built for this, they're built to defeat these kinds of viruses. Yep,

Dr. Paul  37:18  
I can second that with the experience. In my practice, I was I'm retired now, but I was still practicing through the first two years of COVID, we had not a single child and up in the hospital. And of course, some parents would get fairly sick or grandparents, but not the kids, if they got a cold. Within a few days, they were fine. And a lot of them never even got sick at all.

Dr. Alan Palmer  37:37  
And that's part of it. A lot of children, they were exposed to the virus, they had the virus, but they never even developed symptoms, because they had such a robust, innate immune system. Yeah. And then one other thing, maybe if I could just share for everybody, all ages. And this is the most, this is one of the latest as of August 30, from World World of meters COVID data, showing the daily deaths in the United States. And on this graph, you can see that at the peak was about January 27 2021, up there at the top, the seven day moving average of daily deaths was almost 15,000 people a day, at that very peak right there. And right now we're down at 77 as of August 30. So against entire country, right? They have entire country and all ages, and every death is tragic, but people die all the time, from influenza and from other kinds of viruses and different things, as well, especially very elderly and frail people. So when you look at that, and you consider they want you didn't take it was still an experimental shot. And this new shot has not been tested in humans. It's in the track record the old shot has is so bad, right? Do you really want to roll the dice when we see that the pandemic and the severity of these cases are at all time lows? Yeah.

Dr. Paul  38:54  
From your earlier data, those red box, there's data, you take that shot, you've got a one in 10 chance of something serious happening, there's real probability that it's gonna hurt your heart or kill you. That's not just a remote possibilities. It's happening all the time, and not to speak of it, creating havoc with your immune system. So you can't fight other infections, you are less able to fight cancer. It's it makes no sense. You got it going away, like your data just showed, we know that as viruses mutate, they're less deadly. So it's becoming less and less scary, but they're going to continue on with a dangerous product. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Dr. Alan Palmer  39:35  
We haven't really touched on the myocarditis or the sudden cardiac deaths. But it's just crazy the number of stories and results, things that you see with athletes and so forth dropping dead on the field. In fact, this morning I spoke with an old gymnastics coach and weightlifting coach that was a mentor in that area for me when I was a Very young boy when I was 1819 years old today, he's in his 80s Now, but he has he's been a weight weightlifting coach for years and he still coaches. He had two former students both he said were 38 years old. That right after they got the shots that died exercising the it was determined that they had myocarditis. And Peter McCullough is all over this, I really encourage those of your viewers who aren't familiar with Dr. Peter McCullough, to really, he's probably the most published or second most published cardiologist in the world, I believe he's with over 700 papers if I'm not mistaken. But some of the studies I've featured in my newsletter recently show that the spike protein from the shots actually infiltrates into the cardiac muscle. And when you have this electrical impulse going through the cardiac muscle, it's like a chain reaction through the muscle as the electrical field or impulse goes through for the heartbeat. And when you have the spike proteins lodged in a muscle is way Dr. McCullough describes it. My understanding from the way he describes it anyway is that it interrupts that signal, it interferes with that signal or that conductivity of the electrical impulse and can cause a sudden, very rapid fibrillation of the heart muscle like tachycardia, the word the heart cannot contract because it's watching or listening to so fast. Yeah, it's again, it's just so tragic. What we're seeing and again, just crickets from the media and from our public health officials about this. They've had to acknowledge the myocarditis carditis rates because it's just, it's, there's been so many papers on it and everything to that they've had to acknowledge that. So that's a small win. But is it really a win win, they're continuing to push the products on people that to your point from a age six on up and recommending these continued shops. It's not much of a win

Dr. Paul  41:48  
on the infants having heart attacks, folks, it's insane. So, I want you to give me your final word for our viewers. And then I'm gonna have Didi come in interview and she's gonna play devil's advocate with you. Okay. Your final message to our viewers fall is coming. They're rolling out a new campaign. What do you recommend?

Dr. Alan Palmer  42:08  
Yeah, I'd say do your homework. Follow people like Dr. Paul, follow up the high wire on Thursdays follow children's health defense, look at the articles, look at these organizations that put out the science they put out the peer reviewed science published science. And they ask the hard questions, they really challenge the status quo, they challenge the narrative, you deserve to do that for yourself and for your children, is to really educate yourself. I've got some great resources. Again, it's wellness doc.com. And under my educational portal tab at the top, you can see my 1200 studies ebook, my COVID have accepted a lot of great books, I've just ordered a few of them various things, and my newsletter you can subscribe to and everything. If you want to really stay up to date on a monthly basis with all these kinds of things that are happening my newsletters, typically about 160 to 200 pages long. index with hyperlinks from the table of contents, so it's very easy to peruse and find things as a PDF. So

Dr. Paul  43:08  
stalking farmer you are a science nerd, but we need people who nerd Yes, thank you for all your hard work. And back on the show appreciate you

Dr. Alan Palmer  43:17  
like yourself, I have a passion for helping people Dr. Pol. And and so thank you for having me. First of all, Dr. Palmer,

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  43:23  
thank you for being willing to do this. And so I'm gonna shift into my, my main stream, will you? So I just listened to everything you said with Dr. Paul. I need to know, why should I listen to what you're saying? When EHRs like all these big doctors, media, the news jitter of doctors who are practicing medicine, medical doctors are disagreeing with pretty much everything you said, the government's wares that they care about us, right? So why are all those people wrong than you are right?

Dr. Alan Palmer  44:09  
First of all, I want to be clear, none of my opinions are my own. I do not have opinions on these things. All I've been doing is investigating and reporting what people a lot smarter than me. researchers, physicians, people who have really dug into this and done the science.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  44:26  
Yeah, but Dr. Palmer, those people are part of misinformation. These are people these people have lost their licenses. So why are you listening to them? These they're being censored because they don't know anything and you're listening to them?

Dr. Alan Palmer  44:42  
Yeah, I think I would. I think I asked everybody to be a healthy skeptic. And what I call a healthy skeptic is somebody who's willing to have an open mind and look at both sides of the equation. One of the other premises I think are principles that I always tell people to do is follow the money trail. I think when you're Getting opinions by people and you're listening to the talking heads on TV? Do they have an ulterior motive? Are they financially incentivized to be able to tell you something that's in their best interest or going to make them money? Most of the researchers that are doing the studies that are disagreeing are not financed by pharma, or they're coming from universities and so forth, where they're not being financed by Pfizer and Merck, and so forth. If you do see some studies, they're typically have authors and people and come from deep roots with pharma, we look at the connections between our government health agencies and the capture of those agencies by industry, not just the pharmaceutical industry, although that is a huge one, you can just see the amount of money that changes hands, you can look at the revolving door between the CDC and the FDA and health and human services in the pharmaceutical industry. There's a report just have obtained that is a more recent study looking at that. And the percentages that it shows the percentage of people that before they, they got a job within Health and Human Services, or one of those agencies, they were working for the pharmaceutical industry, a high percentage, and then once they leave those agencies, they get very lucrative jobs into the pharmaceutical industry. For instance, Scott Gottlieb, who was a former FDA commissioner, when he left the FDA, now he sits on Pfizer's board and gets paid hundreds of 1000s of dollars a year on Pfizer's board, but yet they still had him out there throughout the vaccine rollout, talking about how great Pfizer's vaccine is, you have to think critically. Number one, you have to be a critical thinker. You've got to look at some of these entanglements of government and industry and pharma, and who finances what, and then ask yourself, what is the motive for these other researchers to come up with a different opinion. So I think in the end, you're going to have I remember Robert F. Kennedy saying, when he would litigate against these big polluting companies, we would bring in all our experts from Harvard, and Yale, and Stanford, and they'd bring in their experts from Harvard and Yale and Stanford. And they'd have conflicting data, conflicting studies. But at the end of the day, someone has to decide what the truth is. And I think each person has to come to their own truth, they are all conclusion. But what I would say to that is, make sure that you spend adequate time looking at these old sources of information in looking at the studies and reading and thinking critically, and then make up your own decisions.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  47:33  
So I hear you're still playing devil's advocate here. So you don't think the money thing is just an excuse? Because I hear that all the time. It's hard on media people. It's I just I find it hard to believe that money is the reasons aren't, don't they think they're doing the right thing?

Dr. Alan Palmer  47:51  
I believe a lot of times people do think they're being they're doing the right thing. But I think they can be jaded look at the media, the media is definitely financed in part by Pharma. A lot of these shows are brought to you by Pfizer now, and so forth. So I think that's an important consideration. So let's talk about the results in the United States with regard to the mortality rates and COVID, at least their perceived mortality rate, or their stated mortality rate of over 100, or over a million people dead from the virus, the United States has, by far the worst mortality rate per 100,000 people in the world, we have failed in every category possible compared to most of the world. If you look at the most highly vaccinated or injected people in the world, or countries, they have done terrible with regard to health, and with regard to the outcomes from this pandemic. And so I think if you look at the results of what they've told us, and the ins and results of that with excess mortality with excess disabilities, with all these different things, they've failed miserably on all counts, you look at the countries that are a lot more low vaccinated countries in the world, they have far lower mortality rates from from the virus and from the pandemic. And

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  49:10  
I'm gonna interrupt you, because we don't have much time. This is my point, though. It's, it's, it goes back to again, we're always gonna say it's about the money because if those facts were real, and they're right, and they're true, then why isn't this information has rewear? Why?

Dr. Alan Palmer  49:28  
Let me ask you, Didi, do you feel there's been any censorship of information throughout the pandemic? Do you feel that there's that there people have been Oh, I just watched the news, banned and censored and I think they're

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  49:42  
gonna stop playing devil's advocate because it's hurting my heart. If so, I'm not personal now because I know you're a dad and your grandfather to correct yes. Why are you working so hard on this? What is your personal hope for everybody? Because they're such an amazing man. And I see Dr. Paul checking out everything and watch. We really follow you. I've we just I heard him somebody else who I've been talking to that we coach that knows you. There's always such positive when people talk about you and everything you're doing. So you're, I gotta know

Dr. Alan Palmer  50:18  
what? Sure well, you're, you're so kind. I think my hope is the tagline from my 1200 studies ebook. Well, if 100 studies truth will prevail, and I believe in the end truth will prevail. I think we're seeing that already. I think we're seeing people questioning that regular vaccine paradigm now, because of the overreach and overplaying their hands so bad. With these COVID injections, they're starting to question why are they pushing it so hard? They're starting. So I think that some very good things are coming out of that. And I believe that some momentum is being gained. And but I do believe that the truth will prevail, it just takes people like you like Dr. Pol, like some of the other people I've mentioned in this podcast, and people who are just working hard and diligently because they have a passion and a love for helping people. And they believe they have a heartfelt belief based on their truth of what they've seen the evidence that they've seen. Now the other side has their evidence to there's some butting heads, there's a clash of two, two paradigms, really two different paradigms there. But I believe in the end that, that people will learn to think critically, will make their own decisions and are allowed with the censorship are allowed to see both sides of the argument, just like in a courtroom, and then make up their decision as if they were a juror. That's the way science should be done. Not opposing, eliminating one voice on one side of the courtroom. And so that's my hope that we will get back to that day when that those discussions can be brought forward. And then decisions can be made based on both sides of the equation.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  51:57  
Okay, yeah, it's so keep working really hard.

Dr. Alan Palmer  52:02  
I will thank you so much, and thanks for your support.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  52:05  
You're willing to play my game but the personal hope thing I think that's the most important thing. I think we all weren't that we weren't truth or at least we need the freedom to choose what we want to do with ourselves.

Dr. Alan Palmer  52:19  
Thank you, God bless.

Dr. Paul  52:25  
I look forward to running together with the wind at our backs, revealing the science that gives clarity in our world that's full of propaganda and misinformation. Visit our website, doctors and science.com Sign up. Donate if you can. Your support makes a difference. And let's make this the weekly show the world has been waiting for. Thanks for watching. I'm Dr. Paul.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

​Dr. Paul  0:07  
Dr. Paul Welcome to with the wind science revealed. My guest today is OB GYN, Dr. Nathan Riley as a young OB GYN he has made the transition from the medical model that most other doctors are practicing in to supporting midwives and home births. He's got a midwife collaboration program. He's got a Born Free method, a holistic approach to HPV and preventing cancer. And the shocking thing to me was when C section rates and hospitals are running 30 to 40%, he still deals with high risk pregnancies and has a home birth C section rate of less than 5%. It's crazy impressive. Now, the ending DD Hoover does a masterful job of playing devil's advocate, and then getting into some really controversial topics, you're not gonna want to miss it. Enjoy the show.

Dr. Paul, coming to you from the heart. My topic today is gratitude. But it's a specific gratitude. I want to thank all of you who are speaking truth to power. Thank you, for those of you who are standing up for people who have no sense of power, who have no hope. You know, so many of you are risking your careers, even relationships to do what's right. And we need more of that. So I applaud and encourage all of us to stand for what we know needs to be done in our world today. You know, peaceful disobedience. Sometimes it's necessary. And I think it's important, especially in everything we've seen happen in the last few years. So I am in gratitude to all of you, we need to continue to have compassion for people who feel differently. People who disagree with us, people who maybe are even what we would consider our enemies. But let's lead with love. We certainly have endless opportunities for forgiveness. But I feel a shift is coming. So let's stay strong. In what we're doing.

Welcome, Dr. Nathan Riley, it is such a privilege to have you back on the show. Dr.

Dr. Nathan Riley  2:26  
Thomas, it's always a pleasure to meet another person who's not just out there like self promoting, but is actually reading literature and still in helping to try to navigate this whole informed consent thing. Like it's really, I feel so refreshed, just having spent some time with you earlier today. It's just, it's an honor. So I'm happy that we get to spend more time together.

Dr. Paul  2:46  
Yeah, the feeling's mutual, you are a rare, indeed, breed of an OBGYN. You're board certified in that specialty, which is the group of doctors who take care of pregnant women, right? And female issues. A you're a co creator of the Born Free method and clear and free your holistic solution to persistent HPV, which we're going to talk about before we're done. But I wanted to start with because not everybody necessarily knows your story. How the heck does a OBGYN get disillusioned with traditional care? And start doing all these incredible innovative things you're doing? What's your journey there?

Dr. Nathan Riley  3:26  
I probably get a different answer to this all the time. And I don't want to be disparaging to people who are still inclined to go to the hospitals and clinics. But for me personally, as a man as like a lifelong student, I just found I wasn't getting support from people that were training me or that my colleagues and whatnot for just asking questions and wanting to investigate those answers and be willing to be wrong. Nobody really out there likes being wrong. I've been wrong about like 90% of the things that I've conjecture, but I've also been right about 10%. And those 10% have not only gotten me in trouble, but they've also been the sort of seeds that have grown into these really extraordinary conversations I've had with people who have felt let down by the system. So I'm serving a minority. But that minority is really I think growing and blossoming into a large minority and perhaps will eventually be the majority and that really sunrays people that I think have become disillusioned with this sort of illusion of safety that's been offered by the medical establishment, the medical industrial complex, and I still think there's good reasons to go to the hospital and sometimes get C sections and whatnot. But like, a lot of people are being broken by that system. So I didn't take an oath to perpetuate a broken system. I took an oath to take care of people and that's what I do now. Yeah,

Dr. Paul  4:42  
that's awesome. So when you went to medical school, did you have any idea your career would take this trajectory? Hell no.

Dr. Nathan Riley  4:50  
I was I thought I'd have a 401k and I'd be making several $100,000 per year and driving an Audi and whatnot. And granted I'm not like hurting financially but I don't live in California. are nowhere the cost of living is extraordinarily high. I live in Kentucky and we have two little girls the second was born at home and I work with midwives. Now I'm like a student of midwifery now. So yeah, I did not. That's where my career was gonna go. That's for sure that

Dr. Paul  5:14  
that is just amazing. And so you're in your let's just go back to your in your OB GYN residency, I remember rubbing elbows with the OB GYN residents, because as a pediatrician, or in the delivery, you guys are cutting the babies out and handing them off to us. And we're writing them off and occasionally giving them oxygen, whatever we had to do. The system that we were trained in, was all we knew. How did you end up waking up to the fact that maybe there's a better way or a different way that seems to have what kind of health outcomes are you seeing?

Dr. Nathan Riley  5:48  
It pretty simple. I started listening, started listening to people and women who had let's say, I'll go back to my medical school training. I had a really great attending. I did an OB anesthesiology, rotation for whatever God and if for whatever reason, and I think part of it was like, Oh, maybe I want to play epidurals and spinals there are in certain parts of the world OB Joanne's can do that you have the skills to do it, you just haven't trained to do it. So let me go and do that. I realized man, these are like the ultimate customer service agents. And there was a there was a an attending I had who's remained good friends of mine, she now has a trauma informed, completely free prenatal practice up in Pittsburgh, her name is Tracy Vogel, and she still works as an OB anesthesiologist. But she shared so many stories with me when I was rotating with her about women who had like, natural, physiologic births, what you're thinking of what people were listening or thinking of. And they've still felt like something wasn't right. And I found that to be so interesting was like, what could you possibly complain about you have a healthy mom healthy baby. And when you start to unpack that, you realize the way that we speak to people, the way that we that we honor the experience that is actually everything. And as if now Father, I realized that the way that a doctor speaks to me or touches my daughter, or makes me feel like they're actually seeing me as a person, I am not a dumb guy. I'm not the smartest guy. But I'm not like a total idiot, either. The way that they spoke to me that the way that they made me feel seen and heard was actually everything. And I realized that women in the hospital system giving birth, were not feeling seen, they were not feeling like they were being given a real fair shake and informed consent, they were having information withheld, so that they could stay on medical train, and the doctors and the nurses and whoever all good people with good intentions, could continue doing things the way that they were doing it. Oftentimes, I think at the cost of persons fully embodied birth experience, which I don't see a medical procedure, I see it as a very sacred transformation. I've gone through the birth of my own children. That is a really intensely exciting and also oftentimes very scary experience. I didn't feel like I was prepared with those tools. And by listening to women and their partners and their families, I realized I got to do things differently, because I can't continue to do it this way. Even though the stats would tell you it's safe and all this other stuff. They're saying I didn't feel safe. So what is that unpacking that and listening to people is really I think, where I started getting nudged out, I saw myself out it was like maybe I just don't belong here.

Dr. Paul  8:22  
So then, how long have you been doing home births or supporting midwives who are doing home births.

Dr. Nathan Riley  8:30  
About five years now, for for only four years actually, I practiced in Encinitas and Adonis scripts. While I was in fellowship for hospice and palliative care. I'm actually dual board certified. And while I was in hospice fellowship training, I was working as a full time OB GYN in a Scripps hospital doing all of this stuff as a hospitalist meaning I was there to do all the emergency things whenever their doctors weren't available to come in. And, and lab, it was a really great place. Lots of C sections, lots of like, really emergency kind of stuff. And then when I got recruited out to Kentucky, it was about six months into my tenure there. And I was like, I can't do this. There's people calling me in to help with C sections, and they want to talk about their kids basketball games, and they wanted me to go to stuff and I'm like, this is a person who's going through the the most nightmarish thing of their life and emergency C section. And we're just going to like casually just babble about whatever small talk. So I call the call it quits there and immediately found myself in a space where I could either start a homebirth practice myself, or if I really believe in withevery, I read midwives. And that's when I started collaborating with midwives around the country. And then that led me naturally into home birth, because there's a lot of midwives who can't practice based on licensing restrictions and whatnot, they can't see certain people. And then those people, their only option is to go to the hospital. If we can pay attention to certain things and we can dial in your lifestyle, maybe detox before your pregnancy, all those types of things. You don't have to worry about those pregnancy complications, but nobody's doing The network. So I find myself in this kind of strange niche taking care of high risk people from their past pregnancies and helping them have their dream birth in a current pregnancy.

Dr. Paul  10:07  
Wow. You've probably helped hundreds already.

Dr. Nathan Riley  10:13  
Yeah, it was like 1000 plus first when I finished my my year down in Encinitas. And now if you were to if you were to take the births, I've gone to myself, and the number of women I've supported in pregnancy buy in, by means of supporting their midwife, it's probably been 1000s It's the most rewarding sort of path I could have found myself on.

Dr. Paul  10:33  
You are a blessing to to the whole birth industry. Yeah, it takes real guts to have the extensive training that you've had. And I would also add maybe indoctrination. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Then be able to break away and support midwives. What a blessing. I remember when my mom was a nurse midwife in the Ohio Valley, and she was training, she was a certified nurse midwife from Yale, training lay midwives so that they would recognize high risk situations. Wow. Cool. And they could not find OBGYN to support them. Yeah, yeah,

Dr. Nathan Riley  11:08  
that's I think that's a national growing problem. Nationally, there's a lot of states where was they could have attended 10,000 birst. They cannot practice midwifery. Without a quote, collaborative physician or a supervising physician as if I this like young guy, who trained in the medical system has any has any real insights into what's going on in our hospital birth, this is apples and oranges. Fortunately, I straddle those two worlds, and I've been able to support midwives and keep them in practice, and not make the money. I'm not charging the homebirth fees that a lot of people do when I do go to homebirths. Yeah, there's a fear but, but instead of hiring me, let me just support your midwife so they can take care of you at one time. So it was more of a It's not self selfless. It's more just Lin if we want to have the most impact. Where who is doing the best birth work? It's midwives. Yeah. So let's put our resources towards that. I'd like the whole country to do that. But for now, I'm like, an n of one who's supporting midwives. And now 24 states. I've got 24 medical licenses. It's a lot.

Dr. Paul  12:16  
Yeah, so I know your website's beloved holistics.com. And they can click on a link there for midwife collaboration program. Yeah. And of course, your podcast, which was just on your podcast. It's an amazing podcast. Thank you. I had an interesting question. I didn't warn you about this one. But it just popped in my head. Having been on your podcast, what have you learned from others in your podcast that just stand out? Wow.

Dr. Nathan Riley  12:44  
No, I, the joy of having a podcast is I can bring in people that are relative. I don't know what the word expert means anymore. But there are people that have been so deeply thoughtful and committed to certain trying to understand certain things about the human experience that is so relevant to birth work, for example, like intimacy between let's just like a male and a female, like a heterosexual relationship. The opportunity that men are seeking now to be a part of this experience are really show up in a very different form of masculinity, compared to what we maybe what our fathers, our brothers, our frat fraternity brothers, whatever was modeled to us, that doesn't really serve us nowadays. If you want to be fully invested in this birth process, I get the opportunity to bring people on that are experts in Tantra. They're experts in the sort of work of David data of divine masculinity, divine femininity, it really helps it put together the whole story of the human experience, as opposed to looking at ourselves as this automated, robotic kind of automobile. The best, the greatest insights that I've gained are actually things that I've liked John Weinland, was a guest recently and read his book and like my sex life with my wife started getting better, like these little bits of information that are there less about this sort of linear process of what you do in life and more about actually embracing presence, and community and connection with the people we love the most, including my own little girls. It's a joy to have a podcast like that you can just have these conversations that were either genuinely curious, and then we can unpack it in conversation or kind of a flow. That's I think that's probably the the greatest insights that I've gained from guests on my podcast.

Dr. Paul  14:30  
Wow.

Dr. Nathan Riley  14:30  
What about you? I'm curious.

Dr. Paul  14:32  
I sure I could go there. Let me finish this thought though. Okay. Well, I was visiting with my daughter just this last week, and she's eight months pregnant, and she's gonna do a home birth, and she has a midwife support but that's it. She doesn't have you in the background. So I'm really glad to know about you. And I'm going to tell her about you but never mind. I'm having this conversation with her husband. And he made the comment this childbirth at home stuff. I'm just gonna be in the background. I'll bring the hot water and I'll serve coffee. And then I'm listening to your description of being in touch with your soul and the purpose of connecting that. And thinking, Okay, I need to send him to your podcast. Yeah, I

Dr. Nathan Riley  15:12  
do as much counseling of soon to be fathers as I do pregnant women nowadays because Yeah, listen, the pregnancy thing is actually the easy part. What's going to come for the next 18 years raising this little child? That's really what that's the hard part of having a baby, I

Dr. Paul  15:26  
think. Yeah, no, absolutely. And navigating all these tough decisions, which I know both of us handle on our podcast. So yeah, to flip it back on myself, you're asking me what I've learned. I'll say it for COVID. Especially, because I was pretty versed in pediatrics. That was my wheelhouse. And then comes COVID is what the heck is this? First of all, it just descends upon us. And we're all like scrambling to try to figure it out. And I've since had countless amazing people, Peter McCullough, Pierre Corey, and countless others who are really on the cutting edge of yeah, not only did they figure it out, but they're speaking up standing strong when they're being censored. Yeah,

Dr. Nathan Riley  16:14  
yeah. And who else is gonna give them that platform? Like nowadays, the media at large is not really interested in those conversations. But we get to just do this and get learn from one another. And at the end of the day, you're just a person, I'm just a person. And every single day, I have to figure out where do I put my attention? Oh, Paul Thomas was just on my podcast. And he said something that stuck with me. And that's like, a different path for me to go down. And that's, that's really, I think, how we're going to evolve medicine. That's where we're going to really move our society in the right direction is having honest conversations with people that are willing to just say, I don't know, what do you think that's really I think what Miss and that's what drew me into medicine in the first place is having that collegiality? I don't have that in my life right now.

Dr. Paul  16:54  
Yeah, no, it's so true. I'm really grateful for your podcast. I imagine you've covered COVID and masks a bit on your show.

Dr. Nathan Riley  17:02  
Oh, yeah. James Thorpe, who's an OBGYN MFM, Florida. He was on the podcast recently. Yeah, all of those things have actually become a big part of unfortunately, as become a sort of the forefront of my whole practice. Because let's take the farm, for example. animes sort of legacy in Summertown, Tennessee, the farm midwifery practice used to attract people from around the world to have a really unusual birth experience on this farm, this commune in Tennessee, but then COVID happened in midwives shit the bed more than anybody. Suddenly they like, succumb to this fear. And now you had to have a mask on and you have to be double or triple boosted and all this stuff. And I'm speaking as a peripheral observer, right? Some of these birth centers that were radically different, they just succumb to this notion that you have to have a mask on while you're giving birth and all this and a lot of women were like, No, my wife included, we're having a home birth, because I'm not wearing a mask and pushing my baby out. I'm not going to do that. I'm not gonna shove a stick up my nose, while I'm actively laboring like, right, it's just not going to happen. So we've had a lot of conversations like that. And

Dr. Paul  18:09  
your observation is, since you've been open minded about the fact that maybe those masks weren't really doing much, you've probably had plenty of exposure, the last two, three years of home, childbirth done, unmasked. And how did everything how did it go? Were they putting themselves at risk?

Dr. Nathan Riley  18:28  
I think that there's two elements to this. And we talked a little bit about this on my podcast when you were on recently. The first is that people who succumb to this fear and that there's some sort of external device that's going to save them, they actually end up using that as a surrogate for living healthy lives. The people that are walking around with no vaccines, no masks, and they're not getting sick, their families not getting sick, and when it's because they're actually probably living a healthy life. But the second part of it is that when as soon as you succumb to fear, you're going to show up, in a way in childbirth or otherwise, that reflects a world that is scary, that you're going to get hurt. And all that like that becomes your reality, like your world does become scarier. And we could talk about the neuro chemistry of fear and how it suppresses the immune system and polyvagal theory and all of this. But truthfully, the people that are birthing with me and a lot of my colleagues, including Sarah Rosser, who's one of the most incredible midwives I've ever worked with, they're healthy people, and they're just not willing to play the fear game. They're like, Yeah, this is an exciting thing. And I'm not going to go through this already very exciting thing is sometimes scary thing, childbirth, and simultaneously be afraid I'm going to get sick or whatever else. I'm just not going to play into that. And that actually, I think is reflected in some of our statistics and my low C section rates and everything else fears pickle.

Dr. Paul  19:49  
Yeah, actually, you've got to share your C section rate because I learned it on when I was on your podcast, but you are dealing actually with a lot of high risk pregnancies in the sense that they've had other problems in the past with past pregnancies that almost any other OB GYN would say, is a requirement to deliver in the hospital. Yet you're supporting people to have these subsequent births at home. And what's your C section rate been?

Dr. Nathan Riley  20:16  
Four to 5%? Consistently? Wow. systole? Yeah, yeah. And they are not low risk. These are higher risk women. Yeah. Yeah,

Dr. Paul  20:25  
that blows my mind. Because there are big downsides to having a C section for both the baby and the mom. Yeah. And so instead of a 30 40% C section rate had these high risk pregnancies gone to the hospital, you're at less than 5%. What a gift you giving these families? And sure I'm some of those 5% that end up in the hospital. I imagine it's a bit of a scramble, but I'm sure they have a contingency plan. So they do. Okay. A big part of it is setting some very clear expectations, right? Listen,

Dr. Nathan Riley  20:59  
I can't promise anything, I'm not going to guarantee anything. In fact, even a baby that comes by C section in the hospital, healthy mom healthy baby means nothing to me. Because like you said, our composite scores generally don't take into account the less the non measurable things, the mental, emotional, even spiritual aspects of this process. Which is why when I was telling you that in the hospital, just having a breathing and Linkbait afterwards, not everything for people, but also we do so much preparation, way in advance even before they get pregnant. We do some we look, we look at phase one and phase two metabolism in the liver. Have we detoxified from you from all this other job? Are you eating organic food? Are you eating nutritious foods? Are you moving adequately? Are you hydrating? Well with living water, not like crappy water from your sink? Are you sleeping well, their adrenals in order like How was your emotional boundaries, we get all of that in order and it no surprise then that they have a lower risk of these pregnancy complications arising and subsequent pregnancies. It's what can we do to avoid those things that you've been told are inevitable? And it turns out, there's a lot in people's control. And I don't think a lot of doctors are trained on how to do a variety of those things. So I have this kind of magic combination of things that gets people to where they want to go.

Dr. Paul  22:15  
Yeah, I imagine this is incorporated in your Born Free method. This is the whole

Dr. Nathan Riley  22:21  
thing. I don't have enough time in my days to take everybody one on one. So I say join the community. We're in free method. It teaches you everything, including vaccines and ultrasounds and all these other things that are controversial, or at least growing in controversy. For some people, we cover everything, including all the lifestyle stuff that you can use right now to avoid that, and I become like your concierge guy, but I can't do it one on one with every single person that comes to me. So we built the program, and it's going really well. So

Dr. Paul  22:49  
fantastic. Thank you for doing that. That's, that's the direction I'm going as well. We need to reach more people. So yeah, absolutely great that you've done that. Let's pivot a little bit to your HPV program. You've got a free holistic solution to persistent HPV. And I think you have some pretty strong thoughts about cancer screening and prevention and mitigation of abnormal results. What can you share? So

Dr. Nathan Riley  23:12  
we've got about 14 million per year, people per year diagnosed with HPV in our country alone, but 80 million people are living with it. So let's pause there. Those are big numbers, right? The issue though that I have with it is number one, viruses are not living things are not out to get us all these vaccines that you and I have shot the breeze over? Do you really need to be vaccinated against every possible virus? Probably not. I think most people are going to be do just fine. And if you're not doing just fine, like human papilloma virus, a little tiny strand of DNA, just floating around in a viral protein capsule. If you get that, and your body is not able to kick it, or what I say is integrate it and there's a signal there. What is the signal there's something going on with your immune system. And furthermore, your immune system is also responsible through NK cells and other T cells to scavenge precancerous cells. You and I both have cancer cells, but we have a strong immune system that goes around and says, Nope, you're not you don't belong Nope, you don't belong. The macrophages spit them out and you're fine. What happens the OBGYN clinics that this is what I was trained to do was that people arrive they get their routine Pap smear, something's abnormal, or the HPV screen is positive, it's abnormal. So you end up coming back in six to 12 months and we're hoping and praying that it's not abnormal anymore. The OB GYN are not giving women or their partners for that matter, any tools in order to take this signal as an opportunity to get something in their lifestyle, better in order. So in that six to 12 months, by the way, Paul HPV transmission to abnormal cells showing up months to years, and then from that, what we call cervical intraepithelial neoplasia cin. When that progresses for a tip progressed to invasive cancer years, two decades, and yet nobody in these clinics and these multiple visits, the biopsies, the excisional procedures, nobody's giving you any tools in order to help get whatever's upstream, back in order so that this is not an issue for you for the rest of your life. Yeah, so. So anyways, the immune system just boosts the immune system, right. So

Dr. Paul  25:24  
boosts the immune system. Yeah.

Dr. Nathan Riley  25:26  
But what your OB GYN will offer you instead of telling you, Hey, listen, it's a 90% chance this is gonna go away on its own, and we can boosts that dramatically, almost to 100%. I'm not going to say 100% Because that's not fair. But almost not 100% If we can get your diet and your movement, your sleep and all those things in order. So even if you do develop abnormal cells, that sin three, that's the next step before invasive cancer 50% is going to regress on its own. So all we have to do is say Okay, listen, there is a risk here. But what can we do what's in your control? The OBGYN nurse practitioners and midwives. I'm doing that so now I have to do that. It's another thing that it's she's Oh, man. Now I have to do this. Take this whole approach like I did with pregnancy and childbirth, and I have to do the unpopular thing. But women are clearing HPV they're clearing their cervical dysplasia, and it's not rocket science. It's just very basic things. Yeah, that's exciting. I remember reading a paper some years back on HPV vaccine. It was in JAMA, and it was claiming that it was reducing cancer and I, as I read through the data carefully, the rates of sin three, which is the most closest to actual cancer had gone up in the vaccinated, let's talk about it. But the abstract and the title suggested that the HPV vaccine was reducing your risk. So what's your take on the HPV vaccine at this point? So what you just described was negative equity efficacy. Let's get we'll get there in 60 seconds. Let's first start by looking at our favorite pharmaceutical company. Merck, who in the early 2000s, was facing 10s of millions of dollars in lawsuits due to Vioxx. Vioxx was causing heart attacks. It's an NSAID, like ibuprofen, was causing all these issues. They were hit with tons of lawsuits, they were gonna go bankrupt through a Hail Mary, and created an entire PR campaign around preventing cervical cancer, and they launched their Gardasil vaccine, which is now called Gardasil nine. There are three variations of cervical cancer vaccines, if you want to call them that. The third Gardasil nine is the currently the only one available market in the United States. It was advertised through the be one less campaign, this is in the early 2000s. I think 2006 is when Gardasil nine was released, if I recall, it was advertised as a means of preventing cervical cancer. The problem is, for the reasons I mentioned, cervical cancer takes years two decades to develop. So we can't measure that as the primary endpoint in our studies. So what they did was using some less than honest placebo controlled trials, I'm using air quotes on my end is that they use to send to incent three as the surrogate markers because those hand progressed to cervical cancer, even though a big portion of those will regress on their own even without my help. The problem here is that it had been since parents had become so conditioned through this be one less campaign to think that they were being irresponsible for not vaccinating their children, which by the way, this is offered as early as age nine, before you become sexually active to boys and girls, my little girls are going to be offered this as well as a means of preventing cervical cancer, but it was never demonstrated to prevent cervical cancer. And when you've been exposed to the high risk strains of HPV 16 and 18, in particular, and you get the vaccine, they saw that these women were more likely to develop sin to incent three after they had been after the vaccine had been administered. Once they'd already been exposed to 16 and 18. So one way to look at that is the vaccine caused the cancer. I do think that vaccines certainly dis regulate the immune system. I don't think it's fair to say it caused it any more than cigarettes cause cancer or lung cancer because not everybody who smokes gets lung cancer. Not everybody who got this vaccine got cervical cancer, but there's definitely there's definitely something there to explore. And the unwillingness of our medical system to explore this and ask the questions is what has led so many women to be feel completely powerless and really not just powerless, but they're succumbing to this fear that once they get that positive HPV screen that it's doomsday around the corner, and that's just simply not the case. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  29:33  
So you might have answered this and I missed it. But what do you tell those women who've gotten the HPV vaccine? And now they're worried or is there something they can do?

Dr. Nathan Riley  29:48  
Similarly to all the hepatitis B, for example, like all these other vaccines that we're giving kids, I say, great, you got the vaccine. I don't really care if you got the vaccine. I don't think that it protects you. I don't think it's necessarily in Eisah Leyshon outside of the 72 dose 72 dose vaccine schedule. I don't think in isolation, it's the end of the world plus, we can't unvaccinated you. So let's let the you know, bygones be bygones. Let's worry about everything that is in your power in order to make sure that your immune system, your nervous system, your endocrine systems, all those systems are working in your biodynamic being in order to make sure that you're not predisposed to some serious infection or consequence that infection in the future and this goes to Coronavirus, flu anything like there's no, there's no reason, Paul for us to be afraid of viruses, they outnumber bacteria 10 to one, at least in nature. So if we if viruses are out to get us, we're all doomed because they're everywhere. They're all over us. So what can we do if we're not looking at diet and our clean water, air and soil if we're not sleeping? Well, if we're not setting emotional boundaries, not managing stress? Yeah, you could get sick and die from a viral infection. That's a real shame because we've got so much money and resources in our country. And the best the OBGYN is can do is say, Oh, come back in six to 12 months, we'll repeat the screen. And hey, if it's still positive, we might need to take a painful biopsy, no anesthesia for that. That's this colposcopy with biopsy. And then if you end up in excisional procedure, we're lopping the top of your cervix off. There's all sorts of issues with that that's an erogenous zone. That's one of your sexual organs. It has pregnancy implications, all sorts of things. So my whole thing is, Listen, don't be afraid. What is in your control? Let's work on those things that are in your control. Wow.

Dr. Paul  31:33  
I was gonna ask you what is the most important thing you want people to remember? I think you just answered it. That's it, right? This is amazing so people can reach you. Find you at beloved holistics.com You can forward slash podcast to get to the podcast, you can click on the midwifery collaboration program. You're born free method. This HPV information. Impressive. Don't leave folks. I'm going to have Didi Hoover. Talk with Dr. Nathan Riley. On a personal level. She has that knack for just getting real. You guys have fun. Wait. Thanks, Paul.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  32:09  
Thank you, Dr. Nathan for joining me and being willing to be put through the DD interview. Oh, yeah, mom. So I had to tell you I was listening to your your episode that you did with Dr. Paul on your show. And you play devil's advocate and then he played devil's advocate. You froze her terrible about at Devil's advocate. So let me show you how devil's advocate is supposed to be played. Are you ready? Sure. Okay. Dr. Riley, it is so much better for the baby to get vaccinated through the mom. And because of that way, if the mom catches these diseases, then the baby is protected. Also, what if the mom were to get hurt the mom catches the diseases not only the baby protected but the the moms protected because I'm serious. Think about this. Dr. Riley? If mom are to get polio, when she's pregnant with the baby, she could die and then the baby would die. Do you understand that? Why do you not recommend shots during pregnancy? I think that's insane that you don't that's how you play devil's advocate. By the way. That's

Dr. Nathan Riley  33:23  
good. That's nice. I like that you set me up. That's a softball though. You gotta we're playing in the big leagues, and I'm just kidding.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  33:31  
At Yeah, I think that's pretty big league with what's going

Unknown Speaker  33:33  
on in the world? Yeah, no.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  33:35  
Okay, how about COVID? I shut that COVID Dang it. I want

Dr. Nathan Riley  33:39  
to reiterate this whole fear around viruses, right most of the things that we're vaccinating against that we're trying to get an immune response towards to protect us or against viruses which outnumber bacteria 10 to one. If viruses are the bad guys, then we are doomed. There's no amount of vaccines that are going to protect us because the Coronavirus the SARS cov. Two that big name SARS cov. Two reflects a specific strain of Coronavirus, which is why a flu vaccines don't work that well, which is why the COVID shots aren't going to work that well. And so if we're thinking about vaccinating a pregnant woman, and we're really concerned about our health, if that's our if that's our motivation, why are we doing more in order to support their health through systemic change, radical reform and how we feed ourselves, the nutritious the available of nutritious food? If we're really concerned about viral infection, and viruses are going to win if they're bad guys, they're always going to win. The inability for us to just take the information from this little nucleic acid strip this little microscopic, like electro microscopic, like these are little fragments of stuff. If that's the big concern, why are we investing as much as we can into helping pregnant women be as healthy as possible, from the moment that they get that positive pregnancy test. That's my actual life.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  35:05  
And even before that, I think that's the Yeah. Anybody have your and we talk about that with our nutritional stuff. But my what I want you to explain to a lot of people now right now is telling me what why are these shots dangerous during pregnancy?

Dr. Nathan Riley  35:22  
I don't think that they're resulting in a healthier immune response. So it's not so much that I don't believe that vaccine that the technology is beautiful and elegant and important. I think it's really awesome that we have this idea that what we're injecting is not just promoting an immune response against scary pertussis or whatever else. It's also putting in a bunch of toxic stuff into a pregnant woman. And it's, I think, perpetuating fear, which is going to do you no good as you approach pregnancy or childbirth.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  35:55  
Right. But if you get this shot, um, if, again, devil's advocate, if the mom is getting the shot, why would it affect the baby?

Dr. Nathan Riley  36:05  
Why would because everything that mom is being exposed to is going to the baby. So when we when I talk about what type of food you're eating, it's the same conversation as what's going into your body through injectables. You could make the same argument around variety of other injectable things like Vitamin K is a great example that's in the baby, of course. But what are we really trying to do with this? And is the benefit outweighing the harm? I don't really think that we don't get to that one yet. We

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  36:32  
have that one up coming. Okay. So whatever you're

Dr. Nathan Riley  36:35  
putting into the Mama's going to the baby and these babies through, you could look at it through epigenetics, you could look at it through a variety of other factors. Whatever is going into your body, whether it's injected or it's consumed orally or put on your skin, or it's in your cookware or whatever else, it's going to the baby gotta treat our babies our wounds like temples, and that's just that,

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  36:55  
it's that's just that. No, you're right. Okay. Unbox kids get sick. Anyway, right of not vaccinating is because vaccines make kids sick, then what's the point, especially when vaccines protect against so many deadly diseases as an OBGYN, here's an opportunity as soon as your baby is born to do the vitamin K shot to do hep B. These are all things that can keep these children from dying and the vitamin K shot Come on, you don't want your baby to bleed to death. So why are you as an OBGYN not recommending those things? Don't you feel like that's unsafe?

Dr. Nathan Riley  37:37  
I am first and foremost a pretty analytical guy. And when I consider the if we're going to go down the path of I think Vitamin K is a really great example. Because now this is super universal. And I told I talked to Dr. Paul about my experience residency about hepatitis B, and then later looking at the Safety Data myself and being like, Oh, my God, I was right. That's so validating. And I can't believe that we're doing this universally. Vitamin K is a great example. It's not technically a vaccine, but it is injected into the baby. And there's a number of issues there. So the risk of hemolytic disease of the newborn in the developed world, like rich countries, like the United States is somewhere in the range of nine and 100,000, it is extremely low. So if we're promoting the idea that the baby can't stop from bleeding inside the brain without this injectable thing, we have to then consider the harms. What is the harm moments after the baby comes out of the uterus, it's in a it's already in a cacophony of noise in lights, and just it's a scary place, a lot of people wearing masks now and this little baby was just in this warm amniotic universe. And now you're going to inflict pain in the heel. All because there's a risk of nine and 100,000. So my analytical mind says listen to the person who's coming to me to help, the risk of this bad thing happening is 900,000, we can decrease that risk by injecting your baby with this button, potentially there's a harm there because we're telling the baby as soon as they arrive earthside that there's it's an unsafe place. It's a painful place to be or side. So I don't even really care about the potential benefits because the benefit here is extremely small. So even from an analytical standpoint, our risk is very low of this bad thing happening. So the benefit is very low of the presumed whatever mechanism of action of vitamin K. And there's a whole bunch of other things they're very hard to measure, but that we know are important because we listen to women, we listen to their partners, we listen to the babies. And if it's not, if there's not a great benefit, then I need better evidence. The burden of evidence, I think is on those people who want to deviate from nature and there's nothing natural about shooting synthetic vitamin K into a baby's foot.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  39:47  
Right. What do you think I'm gonna ask you just because it is something that we've we have recommended in the past and that's the drops the vitamin, vitamin K and Vitamin K drops And yeah, orally if it was, I think the thing that's risky for these moms is that they're told, especially with a C section baby man, there's so risk the babies are being they could have bleeding because of the how violent the birth is are coming down the birth canal and all the different things that could cause the bleeding. So it puts again a state of fear and a mom that Yeah, especially with a C section baby, that that could that could be an issue. And so the drops is this way of saying, okay, maybe if there's an issue, then that's there, do you support drops? Or do you say no vitamin K at all?

Dr. Nathan Riley  40:38  
I don't have any. So my approach is not to say do this or don't do this. It's to say, Hey, listen, here is what we know from the data. I am not opposed to people wanting to get Vitamin K, as long as they're informed the drops are an alternative. We did that for our first we did not do anything for a second. But what I will also say is that again, back to what I said before, do you think it's impossible to conceive of a healthy diet in a pre pregnancy and during pregnancy, this woman eating vitamin K to rich foods, that it's not going to somehow be translated into a baby that has healthy blood and healthy clotting. Of course, not the same go. This is a fat soluble vitamin. The same goes for breastfeeding. If you have a natural birth, you're eating nutritious foods. And by the way, those would be bone broth, organ meats, fermented cod liver oil, smoked oysters, eggs, if you're taking those five foods, you are going to have absolutely zero issues related to micronutrient deficiencies in glad no one

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  41:38  
told me about those foods when I was pregnant. I probably could have done it. But I would have thrown up every time after I'm just kidding.

Unknown Speaker  41:44  
I agree. It's an acquired taste.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  41:48  
And again, there's so many things that we do we want to have healthy babies. So I'm glad you said those things. Here's another one. I heard you say Dr. Nathan that your second child that's unvaccinated and had no nothing interrupted to that precious little body actually is getting more sick more often than your first child who had vaccinations. So if that's the point, should you have vaccinated your child then? And maybe that's because your wife didn't get any shots during her pregnancy? Is that why?

Dr. Nathan Riley  42:19  
No Dr. Pol actually helped me with this one I had asked him about this before the recording and he was like your toddler is going to preschool in and out and about and bringing home all the germs in order for the firt the second little one now to just be exposed to more things at a more rapid rate. And I'll add that, so we were never leaving the house. And now our little one is out and about and just getting exposed to a lot more. So I actually feel very grateful that Paul told me that because now I'm like, great, she's gonna have a super immune system. When he or she's healthy. She's fine. It's just, she's just been more sniffles than I expected. But I told him I was like, man, is this like, it seems counterintuitive? He was like, no, like, it's just your baby's getting exposed to more things. Okay, no problem.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  43:00  
We're finding is good just simply to because and I always tell ask parents when they say that with their toddlers that did or kids who did get vaccinated, they can they get sicker when they're sick, and theirs will last longer. And part of it is not having that immune system that builds up. So what you'll notice is when your second baby is a toddler, they probably won't have some of those same illnesses. Yeah, yeah. That's funny that you even Okay, so I'm done playing devil's advocate. Here we go. If you could go back knowing what you know now, what would you do differently regarding education and career? Would you be a midwife? No,

Dr. Nathan Riley  43:41  
I'd be like, I'd be in the forest service or something. I'd be like a conservation myself in a space now where I feel obligated to continue doing what I'm doing. But I had no idea that I was going to be so indoctrinated. Like I thought that this was the ultimate foray into the curiosities of the medical sciences. And I've been very much forced pigeon holed in to do it this way or else and I told Dr. Paul when he was on my podcast recently, like I've been challenging kid probably since kindergarten. In fact, they wanted to hold me back in kindergarten because I didn't want to do what the other kids were doing and they thought it was slow. And I was just like, This is too easy. I need to do something else. I've been a problem child I think for most of my life.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  44:25  
I wonder if that's why my sister was held back I got the skip kindergarten I guess it's because I was sweet. I wasn't. So honestly, would you if you could do it again and again, have that knowledge would you completely not do a medical career?

Dr. Nathan Riley  44:41  
It's hard to say that I say everything I said there's a little tongue in cheek i i feel like I'm doing so much good in the world now that I've actually changed my tone when med students or or pre med students reach out and they're asking me about my careers and whatnot. I've spoken at high school career fairs and whatnot. I actually don't tell people to not go into medicine. I just hope that people who do go into medicine are able to maintain their identity. And their sense of curiosity, which has really helped me flourish as a man, as a father, as a husband, as a physician, if I were told that the only way you could do to be an OBGYN is to work in the system that is perpetuating so much obstetric violence and whatnot. If that were the only way forward, then I would say, hell no, this was not for me. But I have found my way. And that's all fine, I wouldn't take it back. Now I'm pretty happy.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  45:30  
That leads us into what's the best part of being a dad, are you.

Dr. Nathan Riley  45:37  
There are very few surprises. Whenever you get to be an adult, when you're a child, you're guided by your impulses. And then when you become an adult, you're guided by your habits. And the whole story of being an adult is trying to develop good habits to release bad habits. So when you have little kids you get, you start to see the world a new one. I know it's cliche, but to be like, inspired again by a bumblebee is actually I think what most of us adults are lacking. It's that play, it's that curiosity and whatnot that was beat out of us through our education, through our careers and all of that. The best part about being a father, too, is to be able to reflect every single day on the amount of love that these little girls feel for me, like I go away on trips, for births or for whatever. And I come back, and they are like, We're inseparable. And that just reminds you to just embrace this present moment right now. And that is like the most the ultimate sort of leveling up. I think when you're an adult, like there's very little new stuff that comes your way, but you get to see the world again, through child's eyes. And that keeps you young, it keeps you optimistic. I'm way more optimistic now. Now that I have kids. And that's awesome. Yeah, what else? What other choice? Do I have? I Oh,

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  46:51  
you have plenty of choices. But that's a good one darlin. So would you say, then the next question was, what are you best at as a dad? Do you think that's what it is that you're aware of all these things now, that because of what the world has presented, that allows you to be a better dad, because you can be present with your children in the moment that they're in? Because that's what's difficult for most parents.

Dr. Nathan Riley  47:16  
I think I think the best attribute that I bring to parenting is that whatever it is that they want to do, I want that for them. Because that's what I wanted for my whole life. And I didn't always get that DD. I didn't ever have people, I didn't always have people saying, hey, the way that you are is awesome. And I get to be that for them. So it's a little bit of a projection from my own traumas and whatnot, I can actually start to correct that in my own behaviors for their betterment. And I know that the reason that we're so close is because I just love the fact that they're doing that thing. It's not what I would do, but it's what they're doing. And I can love them through that. And that is probably why I'm doing such a good job. At least I think I am I don't know,

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  47:58  
Oh, you are and same thing. So then that's also the same thing is What do you think that you're best at which I've already heard, but if you could sum it up as being a doctor, what you're doing and working with midwives and all that, that excites me, that is just incredible. So what do you feel is your best attribute that you offer as a doctor?

Dr. Nathan Riley  48:20  
When we're like Dr. Paul and I, when we were both any doctor goes through residency years nourished and nurtured to be a part of this bigger system. And I think that what I wasn't incentivized to do was to listen to people, and I find people fascinating. I find a whole human experience to be just this ultimate curiosity. And coming into residency, I had this characterization of midwives as being old, dirty, lazy, stupid, whatever. And then when you actually can just say, but what if that's not true? I always like to look at things from a different perspective, the opposite person's point of view, like what if what I'm being told is not true. As soon as you can do that, it opens up a world of possibilities for you to care for people. So in the, through the lens of just being curious and being willing to listen and see things from another person's point of view. It helps me understand that midwives do this so well. And then furthermore, when I work with midwives, when I work with new clients, just being able to try to empathize and to see a situation from their point of view is has made me such a great physician, a great caretaker, just being present and being willing to see that this person has a whole story that precedes them. They have a whole future ahead. Where do I fit in there? I'm not the captain of this ship. How can I serve this person? Oh

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  49:40  
my god. So you just said this. You just said something and I want to point it out because I don't know if you realize this because you're a lot younger than I am. We have to like with pediatricians whenever I would get bullied and whenever doc and I do our thing. I feel like they forget that. That they don't come home with us. They're not our child right? but they are not allowed to make the decisions for us. So you're saying that about the birth experience and for these women who are going through these things, it's about them. It's what they want their work. So when you say that you're not the captain of the ship, and the pediatrician is not the captain of my child ship. So I love that you said that, and that is what makes you great. So I actually had a tough time. But I have a couple things I have, I want to really get to one of them's really important. I work with infants when they're first born, babies are referred to me Doc's been doing that for years. So my body work has to do my pediatric bodywork has to do with that, that birth can be traumatic. I have noticed in my practice, that the most traumatic things to babies with the spine is curved, all those different things. C section is the worse. Yeah. What's funny to me is when there's an emergency birth, that wasn't even planned, where there was no midwife or nothing, that in a home, those babies seem to do the best, the and even in hospital births, long birth, short bursts, certain things affect that baby's body, and colic and all the different issues that we think children have. I think it's birth trauma. Totally. You see the difference in that when you're at these home births and the whole midwife thing? What do you think's the biggest difference? Is it just the light? Is it? What are they doing at home, tell these families who think that home births on safe, tell them why home is better? That

Dr. Nathan Riley  51:28  
is a great question. You didn't even set me up for this one. And I have been thoughtful about this so much over the past couple of months, actually. So I've started studying polyvagal theory, which is really this theory that it's not just sympathetic versus parasympathetic, you obviously know what this is about, oh,

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  51:43  
I'm a body worker. So yeah, so without knowing

Dr. Nathan Riley  51:47  
what some of this stuff seems, it seems, I don't know, it seems to be confronting to what we understand about the nervous system. But if you even look at SIDS, preterm babies now have a higher chance of dying suddenly, in their early years or months of life. I hadn't understood that until I started studying polyvagal. But what's I think most important is even if don't have a preterm baby, the environment outside of the uterus in those weeks to months, up to six months, let's say, after the birth, is a period during which that ventral vagal the I Am, the real full embodiment of the nervous system is starting to be entrained. And you can't do that without co regulation with your mother. When babies are stuck away in the NICU and they're not being held, they're not being there's no mother ease, there's no laying on your bare chest and feeling the pulse and that CO regulation is so critical to to the development of your baby's nervous system into their lifelong health. If you contrast the experience in the home where the baby is coming out, the naked little piglet is covered in goo and is wrapped up and mom is smelling you and she and the baby smelling the mom. And she's speaking soft, whispering loving, caring words and low You're so sweet. Look at your little fingers like all of that for the next six months, helps to develop the baby's nervous systems so that we don't have a sudden collapse in the autonomic drive to stay alive. If, in contrast, that's the home environment, there's no bright lights, there's no loud noises. It's just calm and quiet. And your baby's hearing your thud on your chest, maybe even next to you in bed, like the breastfeeding all of that. Contrast that with the bright lights, they distractions, the sharp needles, that let's put you all a warmer with the bright lights and get you dried off and do all this exams and all this stuff. If you contrast those two experiences, one is in favor of CO regulation, which is actually in support of a healthy philosophy of little human that just came aside. The other is completely detracting from that entire experience. So that little that contrast alone should be enough for us to say the vast majority of births should be taking place in in an environment that looks more like the home environment. Yeah, versus the crazy. That happens in an operating room for 40% of births in the United States. Oh, we can. Sorry. I'm Custer. Sorry, guys.

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  54:19  
Yeah. Oh, you have no idea how much I cast. But I've been told I can't on our show. And we edit. So Peter can take out a lot of this. But thank you for saying that you and I are going to have to do another interview on this because that is my work. And it's so important. And I go against what a lot of pediatricians say about having your baby on a firm surface and don't put them in bed with you and don't use something to support if they have toward all those freaking things. I have one more question for you. Dr. Nathan, you being an OBGYN and you said I would like to know about both of your birth your children's birth. So you said the second one was born at home with you? Is it just you or did you have a midwife? Good question.

Dr. Nathan Riley  54:56  
Very good question, didi. When we went into our first let me start by saying that when we had our first baby, my wife was very healthy uncomplicated pregnancy, but she really wanted to have the baby in the hospital. And it was right before COVID happened. And it's just that was that's what she wanted. I'm always supportive wherever want, somebody feels called to have their baby. And and we had an OBGYN there and it was quiet room. We did our best with that. And Stephanie didn't feel great about the experience. So later, we're in middle of COVID we have our second baby. Now we're going to do it at home. There was the question of do we need to hire anybody because it is expensive. It was like $4,500 out of pocket and I just been fired for taking off my mask during COVID and taking caring for a dying old guy. And so we lost her health insurance. So it was like man, do we somebody can we afford it? Like we just I just lost my income, what are we going to do. And at the end of the day, Stephanie in both pregnancies said, I really want for the first time in your life, for you to just show up as my partner and not be the doctor and not be the guy here to solve problem or save the day. So it actually afforded me the opportunity to step out of the OBGYN shoes and just to be the most conscious husband and soon to be father again, in our second birth. So we did have a midwife there. She brought in midwife, student and she brought a doctor in the community who's getting into homebirth as well. They were all there, but we were doing a type of breathwork called effigy. breathwork. And we started that started that and now it's like a somatic breathwork and crampy and whatnot. But Stephanie and I were laying on the bed the tub was set up our breathwork friend Sara Termoli came and did the breath with us an hour after Stephanie's waters open so an hour into actual labor and 46 minutes into the hour long breasts and the baby was out on her chest like asleep. So yeah,

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  56:44  
I know that works.

Dr. Nathan Riley  56:45  
Yeah, it works. That

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  56:47  
is such a powerful way to have a baby.

Dr. Nathan Riley  56:50  
Absolutely. So we had this team there but they didn't have to do anything. It was literally like okay, and had my hands not been cramped up I probably would have caught the baby but I could not use them

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  57:00  
so that's so I have to ask just the funny part of it it was Where are you how soon after? Did you go oh my god we didn't even need all these people stuff we could have just done this breathing and having our baby now you've cost me all this money but an hour afterwards

Dr. Nathan Riley  57:15  
I was like god darn it we

Unknown Speaker  57:16  
could have just done it my wife not how you're gonna have your third fourth and fifth baby just breathing on the bed.

Dr. Nathan Riley  57:22  
No we're done having babies present having more join the Clippers I joined clippers we are on a boy I wouldn't mind a boy but I'm not like let's try for another because you know what's gonna happen DD we're gonna you'll

Unknown Speaker  57:37  
have to you'll actually have girls

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  57:41  
in the back, right? Shoot they want to do they wanted a girl they had two more boys. crack me up. Anyway. So yeah, thanks for I think that's important. We always wonder that for a pediatrician. Are you your own kids pediatrician or how? Yeah, so I love that you were there. And you brought up a very good point and that the fathers are very important. So I've been a birth doula and I call it professional labor support for years doing massage through. And I always encourage the dads always seem to be the most grateful about me being there because it assisted them and being the most present they could be. I don't ever think that a doula or anyone should take over the role of the father because this birth, like you said, it's these two people together making this baby happen. Bring this baby into the world. So I love that you you did that. So it's like a great opportunity.

Dr. Nathan Riley  58:31  
Like I don't want to be that it'd be a doctor to everybody. I can be a dad for this one. That's yeah,

DeeDee Hoover LMT, PMT, CCT  58:36  
that's your role. So yeah, I think that's incredible. So thank you again for answering my questions. And yeah, you and I'll have to do our own show sometime.

Dr. Paul  58:53  
I look forward to running together with the wind at our backs, revealing the science that gives clarity in our world that's full of propaganda and misinformation. Visit our website, doctors and science.com Sign up. Donate if you can. Your support makes a difference. And let's make this the weekly show the world has been waiting for. Thanks for watching. I'm Dr. Paul.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

​In his From the Heart segment, Dr. Paul expresses gratitude for people standing up for those who have no sense of power or hope. Many are risking careers and relationships to do what is right. We need more of this! Whether it is through peaceful disobedience or showing compassion for people who think and feel differently from us. Whatever we do, let us lead with love and stay strong in what we are doing!